The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Do you use a stand mixer for dough making?

Cellarvie's picture
Cellarvie

Do you use a stand mixer for dough making?

I've been using an electric stand mixer for dough making, but I've clearly worked it too hard as it's burnt out and given up on me.  Can anybody recommend a replacement? 

A swift cruise through Amazon shows that I could spend as much as good weekend away on this kit, but I don't really need a confusion of sparkly accessories that confound the uninitiated and hog valuable space.  I just need something robust enough to keep up with my bread-head habit, which is that I make about 2kg of approx 72% hydration dough, about twice a week.  I don't use the mixer to develop the gluten (preferring instead a long bulk fermentation with french folds) so it only gets used for combining ingredients. 

Recommendations if you have any would be much appreciated, to avoid me being seduced by all the gadgety bling out there.  Can you help?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

washing the mixer is a total waste of my retirement time.  Plus it makes inferior bread.   If you bake more bread or do it for a living then you need to use it to save time and make mass quantities of dough.

Traditional artisan bread is made by craftsmen, in small batches, without the use of machines and baked in a masonry wood fired oven.  Most of us will never have a WFO so the closest we can ever get to real artisan bread, once we are craftsmen,  is to not use any machines like a mixer.

No need ti use ioe to mix stuff up either.  Just do some slap and folds and it will all come together in less than 30 seconds.

Happy Bread making the traditional way

Cellarvie's picture
Cellarvie

Oh Dabroman, what a joyous response, for which many thanks.  I can see you now fetching water from a well and reading by candlelight.  But seriously, I sort of agree, and certainly my early experience of mixing by hand helped me understand the changes critical to the bread making process, so I understand where you’re coming from.  But sometimes life intervenes and for some of us the route “less effort” is the better one.  Off now to rub two sticks together to fire my oven (I wish!).

Happy baking to you too!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

is none of my business.  What is good for them is good for them - no worries.  They make as good a bread as anyone else.  Some folks are older or have medical conditions or they just want to make bread making easier for them and use a mixer or bread machine.  I couldn't care less really.  I used to buy bread machines at Goodwill to teach Wounded Warriors how to make bread.  It was amazing to see what they could do without the appendages we rely on.  Several ditched the machine after a while and did it by hand once they saw how easy it was - I had seriously under estimated what was possible for them.  

There aren't many coming home with these terrible injuries  now a days so there is not much of a need to teach bread making to them.  Now I'm getting ready to teach old folks, at least a dozen years older than myself at any rate,  how to make bread so they can have something to do in later retirement that is healthy and fun and maybe not have to join those swapping clubs that are so popular:-)

You won't see me lugging any water since we put running water into my Grandmother's house in 1984.  I used to lug her water to make bread for sure an she was good bread baker.  Imagine she had electricity but not water inside the house but a well outside.  Talk about tradition.  She died at 94 in the house she was born in 1994 - how many can say that today?

Reading by candle light is just silly and not at all analogous to making artisan bread the traditional way.  But there many people all over the world who make bread the old fashioned, traditional, artisan way and have only made it that way for hundreds of years, maybe much longer.  Many have taken up doing so as a revival of traditional bread making and craftsmanship.  It is nice to see traditions carried on and others starting to take them up again.  These folks deserve the traditional term and meaning of artisan bread making as opposed to the marketing term used by others saying 'me too I'm traditional artisan just like them'  when they clearly are not.  They might be wonderfully talented, Master bread makers like Jeffrey Hamelman and their bread every bit as good looking and tasting but Jeffrey claims to be a Master Baker not a traditional artisan baker so he gets it too..

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

 I totally understand using a stand mixer to combine the ingredients; do it all the time. And my customers say I make the best bread they've ever had, so I don't think it's too inferior! :)

I make batches of bread from two to 14 loaves at a time, and almost always mix in one of my two mixers. The big batches are done in a 30 quart commercial mixer, but I do one or two loaves at a time in my Kitchen Aid. I would recommend a 6 or 7 quart bowl lift model if you go for the KA. I've got a tilt-head 5 quart which just manages two loaves (1500 grams dough weight) and the tilt pin keeps working its way loose. If I had my druthers I'd get an Ankarsrum. :)

Bob S.'s picture
Bob S.

My first stand mixer was a 4.5 quart KA "Ultra Power" tilting head mixer. The tilt pin almost immediately started working loose. A few drops of super glue fixed the problem, and the pin has not budged since. Just make sure that the pin is clean and free of grease before applying the glue.

Bob

Cellarvie's picture
Cellarvie

Thank you Lazy Loafer.  The Ankarsrum looks interesting, I hadn't come across it before.  I'll check it out.

old baker's picture
old baker

The KA Artisan series regularly tops the list of best stand mixers.  You can get one online for about $200, less than one third the cost of an Ankarsrum.  Sounds like you're not baking huge batches and the KA works fine, even for developing gluten.

Cellarvie's picture
Cellarvie

Thank you Old Baker.  KA certainly gets well reviewed, but they seem to be less costly in the US than the UK (where I'm based).  Still, it's about value in the end isn't it, so I'll check it out.

jimbtv's picture
jimbtv

I bit the bullet and bought the Ankarsrum Assistant about a month ago. Pleasant Hill Grain was having a close out on older models and I decided I needed something to bridge between my KA 5 quart and my Univex 20 quart. I was finding that I was working batches that were too big for the KA and still to small for the Univex.

Most everyone comments that it takes a little getting used to since it is a spiral mixer and not a planetary. I agree. So far I am liking the results and it does a good job.

Most often I use electric mixers for combining ingredients then work the fermentation stages by hand. If for some reason I am pushing the schedule I might use any of my mixers to develop gluten. I find that if the batch is properly sized to the appropriate mixer, any of them will provide a good result.

 

Jim

Cellarvie's picture
Cellarvie

Thanks Jim, it seems those with an Ankarsrum are pleased with its performance.  Interesting that you felt the need for something in the mid-capacity range, I think that's probably where I am at the moment.  I'll check it out.  

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

I'd say get a KA or equivalent.  They have so many uses in desert baking.  I have been using my KA for mixing, and have had excellent results.

But last weekend I got together with a friend at his home artisan bakery to scale up to triple my usual 4 lb/2 loaf recipe, to 8/1.5 lb loaves.  Dabrownman would approve that I hand mixed my beloved Hamelman WW multigrain recipe with 50% freshly milled wheat, with an overnight soaker of 5 kinds of rolled grains (wheat/oats/rye/barley/kamut), cracked wheat, and pumpernickel meal.

The hand mixing of 12 lbs was an adventure and a workout.  I'm used to adding water while watching the machine mix, and can see how loose the dough is.  There will be a learning curve on getting hydration right.  I mixed for about 6 or 8 minutes.  It was a satisfying feeling to have mixed by hand.

The breads turned out well, and I plan to hand mix going forward at least until I'm satisfied with my skills.  I don't have nearly enough experience to say whether the taste and texture are better one way or another (my initial impression is no difference), but this is a skill I need to build, so I'm happy doing it.  I also believe learning to use machinery such as mixers is a skill a baker needs to build.

Cellarvie's picture
Cellarvie

Well that's interesting Filmatic, thank you.  Ideally I'd like to make 4 x 3lb loaves at a time, but maybe I should consider doing this in two halves, mixing half at a time, then combining both halves for the gluten development. Either that or I find a friend with an Artisan bakery - now those are the friends to have!

Thanks for your help.

IceDemeter's picture
IceDemeter

... is to get in writing just what the limitations of the machine are, and what will or will not be covered by warranty.  I personally have a KA 600 Pro which I use for other general baking, but not for mixing bread dough.  I find it faster and easier to do the mix by hand, and I really enjoy manually mixing / kneading!  Frankly, the machine is okay for what I need it for, but I wouldn't trust it for the size of dough that you are doing.

I have a couple of friends who have used a couple of different models of KA and have had warranty issues denied because the bread recipe that they used was NOT specifically from the KA recipe book (how's THAT for a warranty limitation?!) even though it didn't exceed the volumes / weights of their recipes.  With the size of mix that you are doing, I have to strongly recommend that you get it in writing from whatever manufacturer you choose that your recipe is within the specs of the machine.

Sorry for not having a good recommendation, but hope that the warning is useful!

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

My KA is probably almost 20 years old, and I have used it for 4 lb batches for over a year, and it shows no sign of burning the motor.

Cellarvie's picture
Cellarvie

Now that's what I needed to know when I bought the last one, so yes, I'll be following your advice this time round.  KA's customer service doesn't sound too helpful does it.  Guess I need to pick my retailer with care.  Thank you IceDemeter, really helpful.

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

Still waiting for it in the mail! Exciting.

Cellarvie's picture
Cellarvie

Thank you BreadBabies, that Danish dough whisk looks interesting.  Looks like it might have many other food prep uses too, Hope it arrives soon, and thanks.

sue cardiff's picture
sue cardiff

My KA 600 Pro will easily do 3-4 lbs, mixing or kneading or both. My Globe gear driven 8 qt will do 8-10 lbs. I particularly like a good stand mixer for authentic water bagels, which use high gluten flour and must be kneaded to window pane or beyond. For 2-3 lbs I usually do all by hand.

Cellarvie's picture
Cellarvie

Thanks Sue Cardiff, that's a useful comparator and shows that I'm probably heading for the larger mixer (would like to make about 12lb dough, if necessary in two batches) so I'll check out the Globe.

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

There are a lot of ways to mix dough.  As long as you don't over do it, it's totally fine to use a machine.

Since it sounds like you may be somewhat budget conscious, have you considered using a food processor? It's inexpensive, works well with high hydration doughs and you might even already have one. But you have to get the hang of it. It can overheat dough and quickly develop the gluten, so you'd pulse it very minimally and use ice water for making your dough, depending on your desired final temp.

If you have one, give it a try and see if it suits your needs before you go out and buy something new.  I used to use it all the time. But I haven't gone back to it since I started Artisan baking, simply because I haven't needed to. So, I don't know how I'd like it now that I have more experience.

Cellarvie's picture
Cellarvie

Thank you again BreadBabies.  My experience of using a food processor wasn't good (probably my fault, eye off the ball for just a tad too long!) but your advice on timing and iced water is helpful, It could certainly fill the gap while I await delivery of a new "whatever".

AlanG's picture
AlanG

You need a robust stand mixer, particularly if you use it for sourdough.  The six quart size is the smallest of their pro line (I think) and has a robust enough motor to do everything you desire.  Stay away from the smaller tilt models as the they are under-powered.  I use a mixer for the convenience of getting things started as I have other uses for my time these days.  I do stretch and folds following the initial gluten development and my mixer time is seldom more than five minutes (usually 3 minutes at low speed to get things mixed and then 2 or so at speed two for gluten development).

Cellarvie's picture
Cellarvie

Thank you AlanG, This sounds ideal advice for my purpose.  I too would use it to combine the sourdough ingredients, but develop the gluten using stretch and fold, and like you I'm unlikely to run the mixer for more than about 4 minutes.  That said, I'm noting that the critical specification seems to be the motor.  My last one (500w) was clearly too small, so thank you for this advice - really helpful.

Windischgirl's picture
Windischgirl

i have the 6 qt Kitchen Aid professional, and while it does a good job with higher hydration doughs, like ciabatta, it really struggles with denser doughs like multigrain and vollkornbrot--doesn't combine ingredients evenly.  I've also noticed that I can make about 3.5 lb of dough at a time; bump it up to 4 lbs and the ingredients don't combine.  Plus it's LOUD: over 90 dB.

i was gifted an older model Ankarsrum off of eBay (thanks hubby!) which cost about half of a new one, but it didn't come with the full complement of accessories.  I bought the batter mixing bowl with two kinds of beaters for $65 and the total cost was still just over $400, which makes it in the ballpark of a KitchenAid.  Although the metal bowl is also 6 qt, it can easily handle 4 lb dough and I could probably push it to 5 lb without a problem.  I love that it has a built in timer so will shut itself off, and that it's very stable since the motor is in the base.  The KAM can be top-heavy since the motor is in the head, and I'vet had them shimmy across the counter if not properly minded.

Plus I can actually hear myself think while the machine is running...

Cellarvie's picture
Cellarvie

What a good idea Windischgirl, I hadn't thought of that.  I'll give it a whirl.

Melesine's picture
Melesine

I've had mine for about four years, I much prefer it to my Kitchenaid for bread. 

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

I have two Kitchenaid mixers (a K4a that is over 45 yrs old and still works great - though I have repacked the gearbox once; a Model 600 that is pretty worthless since it overheats at low speed and is so noisy that I have to wear my shooting-range ear protection when I use it (the 90db number quoted above sounds about right, a little quieter than a B737-700 on takeoff in row 25); and a six yr old Assistent N28 which I use for everything except mixing butter into Liege waffles and brioche. You do have to spend a fair amount of time converting recipes from one to the other to get the mixing times adjusted, but for bread at 68% hydration a 1.5 to 2 Kg batch will mix in 3 to 4 minutes and ciabatta at 76% takes 5-7 min. For low hydration dough the dough hook or the roller will work down to 55%.  Below that I think I would just use the dough hook.  But 55% is OK for bagels and that is do-able with the roller and scraper. There is a YouTube video of bagel mixing in the Assistent at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNHRiHcPgMU&t=96s which demonstrates the rotational instability that actually accomplishes the mixing of that stiff dough.

Cellarvie's picture
Cellarvie

Thank you DocDough for that really useful Ankarsrum methodology, that'll help me avoid many trials and mistakes. And to everybody, a big thank you for sharing your insight and experience, and for helping me to clarify my thinking about what I need.  What an infinite and varied pool of knowledge this site is.  So a big thank you also to Floyd for providing us with this community of like minded bread heads, a wonderful resource.  Happy Monday everybody!

BetsyMePoocho's picture
BetsyMePoocho

It's not the size of the mixer,,, it's how you use it......  Or the mixer does not make the dough... It's the magic, understanding, or knowledge of the person using it.  Same for any other method that can be used.

But, a mixer is convenient once a person bonds with it......

Grin.

 

 

albacore's picture
albacore

Cellarvie, if you are in the UK you might want to look at a Kenwood Major. They are solid as a rock and have loads of attachments available for duties other than breadmaking. The Kitchenaids look pretty, but the Kenwoods do the business.

You can often find them (and the attachments) for good prices on Ebay UK.

There's a very nice spiral stainless steel dough hook that you can buy as an extra (not the normal dough hook) that's half way to a spiral mixer. In theory, it's only for use with the Titanium models, but you can use it with earlier models if you are careful about how much dough you mix.

Lance

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Any machine will fail if you work it "too hard", be it a dough mixer, an automobile engine, a tractor, a jet engine or what have you.

There is no such thing as a magic mixer that can handle unlimited amounts of dough. If you don't know how to keep from overloading a dough mixer then maybe you shouldn't have one. If you spend $700 on, say, an Ankarsrum and burn it out, you're out $700. You could get a giant industrial mixer but it will be big and heavy and very expensive and will be overkill for your home baking.

The trick is to listen to your machine. If it sounds like it's bogging down, that is, the sound of the motor drops in pitch, shut it off immediately and lighten the load. I never overload my KA mixer and it's been cruising along for years. The same is true for hundreds of other bakers.

There is this, and there are many other hand-crank mixers made of metal available on ebay. I use a Danish dough whisk mentioned above to make biscuit dough, which is not as stiff as bread dough.

http://ezdoh.com/