First sourdough bake! Comments and advice eagerly awaited :)
After cultivating a 100% hydration white/rye starter for 1.5 weeks, I finally baked over the long weekend using theclevercarrot's beginner's guide (http://www.theclevercarrot.com/2014/01/sourdough-bread-a-beginners-guide/) and got my very first sourdough loaf! It's so delicious! Just a little tangy with a crisp crust (but not crunchy enough to break a jaw on)!
(I'm happy to hear any critique on the quality of my bread!)
Here's how the bake went:
- Used starter slightly past its peak
- 35min autolyse
- Added salt + remaining water, bulk fermented at 30C (86F) for 2.5 hours, with 4 stretch and folds 30min apart. I found it really difficult to stretch the dough, it was so stiff! Any suggestions?
- At the end of 2.5h the dough seemed doubled so I tried preshaping - it looked and felt so sticky unlike the pictures on theclevercarrot's post! Maybe I didn't develop the gluten well enough because of the problems I had stretching-and-folding? Also the dough didn't feel very strong and it didn't hold a ball shape, kinda just sagged a bit.
- Let the dough rest/dry out a bit before trying to shape - wasn't very pleased either but put it in a bowl with a floured cloth and chilled it for 2h before taking it out and shaping again - this time it was much easier! Dough also stiffened a bit after chilling and seemed to hold its shape slightly better - though still seemed a bit saggy and weak.
- Proofed overnight in the fridge for 10h
- Preheated oven to 450F. Didn't have an oven safe dutch oven/baking stone so I used a titanium ceramic scanpan with a metal pot inverted over the dough - there was a small gap at the bottom where steam might have escaped :(
- Baked for 25min covered, 35min uncovered. Internal dough temperature read 250F so I took it out.
- Let cool for 1h before slicing. Middle was still warm and a bit gummy, should have waited a bit longer I guess.
Wasn't expecting a very open crumb as it's only 65% hydration and my handling skills definitely need A LOT of work (accidentally degassed the dough a couple of times and felt my heart clench at the sound of the escaping gas :( )
However, I do want to get a more open crumb! And a non-gummy middle. Suggestions?
That is one lovely looking loaf. Great first sourdough.
Here are some pointers though. Or one pointer really. Watch out for over proofing. The uncooperative dough and the photos point to over fermentation.
You live in a hot country and it would be a good idea to use less starter or do part of the bulk fermenting in the fridge. Once you refrigerated the dough into the fridge it was pretty much over done already.
I'd probably do the following...
1. Drop the amount of starter to 50g and replace the flour and water from the 100g starter you have taken off back into the recipe.
2. Autolysed without the starter for 30 minutes. After which add the salt and starter and carry on as normal.
3. The dough doesn't have to necessarily double in size. It just has to be aireated and billowy. So watch the dough and not the clock.
Hope this helps.
How would I go about bulk fermenting in the fridge? Should I chill the dough and only take it out every 30min to stretch and fold? Or should I do only 3 stretch and folds for about 1.5h before chilling the dough until bulk ferment is complete? Or maybe use cold water? Or... simply use less starter? Sorry for the stream of confused questions haha I really don't know anything...
What are some signs that the dough is aireated and billowy? This recipe is a rather stiff dough, and if I chill it it might stiffen even more... is the poke test a reliable gauge of when bulk ferment is complete? Or is the dough basically ready for the oven once the poke test works and shouldn't be allowed to sit any further without fear of overproofing?
Also, do you think my method of baking on the titanium ceramic roasting pan with a steel pot cover contributed to low oven spring? Thank you so much for your advice! Sourdough baking is really therapeutic and I'm planning to do another one next weekend :)
Really nice first bake! Here are a couple thoughts.
One, that recipe is fine, but I'd recommend Hamelman's Bread (my favorite) or another comprehensive book. They are so great for getting a fuller picture. I like Hamelman because it's intermediate to advanced, and has many great recipes.
Two, stretch and folds are to develop the gluten. The protein level in flour is a factor in how stiff or loose the dough gets. Bread flour is probably 12.5 or 12.7, whereas in all purpose it's closer to 11.5. or 11.7. High gluten is probably 13.5-14.5. Most people find that AP works well for most recipes. I can't remember the last time I used bread flour, but it and high gluten flour can be useful in recipes with lots of additives getting in the way of a firm texture.
So as to your stretch and folds, the main thing probably making it hard to stretch is that it's a low hydration (stiff) dough--around 50% (formula = water/total flour). Most bakers I've observed here and elsewhere tend to work in the range of 65%-85%, with some pushing into to 90s and even 100s. This is not a strict rule, but is relative to the degree of looseness call for in the recipe or your preference. As you go on you'll find pleasure in gaining the skill to work with higher hydration doughs.
For general rules, you don't want to stretch until it tears, and you want to let the dough relax adequately so you can stretch it. If it stiffens after one or two folds, it's not bad, but perhaps wait 45 minutes instead of 30 and see if you can get more. You're developing the gluten for when you go to pre- and final shape. If you were to do those without having periodically built the structure with folds, you'd have a looser, more difficult to fold dough. On top of that folds give you a chance to feel where things are with gluten development and fermentation and see what to expect as you move to the next stage. I tend to go 45 minutes to an hour after the last fold without folding before pre-shaping.
Three, most recipes call for 200-210 internal temp, so 250 is way past done, so it's probably on the dry side. I prefer baking on stone with steam before and after loading the loaves. I use lava rocks in a pan, which creates a lot of steam. Whether you have an electric or gas oven makes a difference in how you steam--or how much steam you can hope to use, because gas ovens vent much more for safety reasons.
Happy baking!
Phil
1) That's definitely on my reading list! Flour Salt Yeast Water too...
2) I chose to use a low hydration recipe with bread flour for my first bake because I thought it would be easier to handle. I think I might stick to trying to master the techniques of bread making before attempting higher hydration doughs... though the coccodrillo ciabatta worked out amazingly too! The next recipe I plan to try after I'm satisfied with this loaf is http://www.breadwerx.com/how-to-get-open-crumb-from-stiff-dough-video/
3) Mm, I find it really difficult to hold the bowl down while pulling the dough and making sure the dough doesn't just come off the bottom. I was thinking of letting the dough relax a bit more and doing more stretch-and-folds but I live in a very warm and humid climate and another member pointed out that this bread might have been overproofed. So, not really sure how to balance getting in more gluten development without exhausting the yeast... Suggestions?
4) Oops, typo! I meant 205F not 250... Actually the crumb was fluffy and moist (though a spot in the centre was a bit gummy). I'll definitely be getting a baking stone after my loaf handling skills improve! It's a bit too big of an investment for me right now... Also, about steam... Is covering the dough enough to generate steam for oven spring? The last time I made the coccodrillo ciabatta I sprayed the loaves with water and put a pan of boiling water on the bottom of the oven, however the crust turned out a tad too chewy/hard for my taste... this time when I just baked the sourdough under a metal the crust was perfect, thin and crispy but not terribly hard (for me anyway!)
I agree you should work your way up to higher hydration. But 50% is very stiff. Try 65% and i think you'll find you can handle it with ease.
There are a lot of stretch and fold videos online. Basically just wet your hand and gently reach under and pull one side over the other, do a quarter turn, and fold again. Near the end of the bulk fermentation you want to avoid degassing, so be more gentle than at the beginning.
Proper proofing trumps folds. Gluten development happens with however many folds you do. You can tell it's overproofed if it is hard to shape and/or gets poor oven spring. The crumb will often show signs as well. You will probably have to look for ways to keep things cooler. Hamelman generally uses 76F for bulk and final rise (or cold final rise).
Yes, covering is adequate for oven spring without any other process. I just find the bottoms burn in DOs when I do it, plus hearth baking gives identical results with much less risk of burning. My stone was the largest one I could fit in my oven (which is huge) from Target for $25.
Ah... here in Singapore only a couple of bake shops sell baking stones (baking hearth bread isn't very popular) so the prices are insane...
Do you think I should do the bulk ferment in the fridge (taking out only to stretch and fold) or should I try an air conditioned room? What would happen if I didn't do stretch and folds at all and let it ferment for about an hour at 30C before putting in the fridge until ready to shape? How can I tell when it is ready for shaping? Someone also said I should lower the amount of starter used to slow down fermentation. Ah, I'm so confused!
These are all good questions. People do lower the amount of starter. Definitely experiment. And people do bulk ferment cold, but not taking it out to do folds. Often people ferment for a short time with folds and then finish bulking cold, then take out of the fridge for an hour and then pre/final shape warm.
If you can achieve 75-85 F for bulk and final rises, however you do it, that's a good range, and the higher you go the more active it will be.
I know there are other very fine bakers here from Singapore and other hot, humid Asian environments. You might want to craft a post asking for their input Bottom line, you kicked butt on your first loaf and you're going to find some clever ways to get the results you want, through reading and trial and error.
Thanks for all your advice!! I'm beginning to see how flexible bread is, even if the tiniest of factors can lead to huge differences in taste/crumb/etc! It's so different from baking in general, I can't wait to try again soon. :)
just to say that the breadwerx videos are full of great tips and his videos are well made so theyre a good start. I have the opposite problem from you - Ireland is damp and cold so im always looking to warm my dough up and it invariably ends up proofing in the microwave : ) happy baking
Yep, I was planning on baking his 65% dough some time in the future! Need to figure out a good way to bring the dough temperature down first though, I'll never replicate his recipe without ending up with a floppy mess... Good luck with your bakes!
even though i have the opposite temperature problem as you I spent time walking around the house with a thermometer measuring - i now know where to go - it might require building or improvising. Other thing to realise is the absorption rate of water is different in America. In Europe, well Ireland at least, the flour doesn't absorb as much water so 65% is actually a wetter dough than it would be in the states.