April 28, 2017 - 11:55am
Another all-rye bake
I've been baking rye sourdoughs over the last few days, for a special customer request. They turned out fairly nice, but I still have challenges with my rye starter staying strong enough to rise the bread properly. As a result some of them were a bit dense and wet (unlike the previous rye bake, where they rose nicely; not sure where the difference lies). Still fairly happy with them. From left to right they are:
- Pumpernickel (from Emmanuel Hadjiandreou's "How to Make Sourdough"). I used fresh sprouted rye berries for this one, rather than just soaking them as in the recipe. However, they turned out a little hard. I like this recipe because it used three barley malts - plain (Maris Otter), crystal and a very dark chocolate malt
- A whole grain rye from Daniel Leader's "Local Breads" - I cook the rye berries along with some buckwheat groats and millet seeds for this one
- Hadjiandreou's Orange Coriander Rye - very fragrant with grated orange zest and crushed coriander seeds
- Not sure what to call this last one - it's the Lazy Loafer take on Stan Ginsberg's variation of Auerman's variation of Borodinsky rye! Again, turned out rather nice but too dense and heavy (even for a Russian rye). Not quite there yet. It does use a sponge and a scald, as well as red rye malt
Here is the crust and crumb of the Pumpernickel:
And here is the sort-of Borodinsky. Note the wet, dense layer.
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That's wonderful that you are able to come up with so many options for your rye-fanatic customer. I kinda want to come over and share... Actually - if you were close enough for me to come over, then I would BE that customer and would never have ended up trying to learn how to do it myself!
I wonder whether you have noticed the same thing that I have - that any 100% rye breads do better when there is a bit of the white (plain / base / standard / diastatic - pick a term!) malt in the mix. I ground it in to a fine powder, so haven't tried it as whole malted berries yet. I use the red and chocolate for flavouring, but really notice a difference in the rise, the bake, and the crumb if I skip the assistance of the diastatic malt in a rye mix.
Just a thought - my rye starter does great with freshly ground whole kernel rye, but gets really pouty if I try to give it purchased dark rye or even pumpernickel flours. I don't know what you're feeding yours, but you might find that using your own milled rye might make it more consistent for you.
I'm loving the idea of getting some buckwheat and millet in with the rye - and will have to give it a try.
Thanks for sharing - and kudos for going to such great lengths to satisfy your customer's request! I'm more than sure that they will be beyond thrilled with the results of your efforts.
Keep baking happy!
I was a little disappointed in this bake, really. They looked reasonably good when they came out of the oven but cutting them in half revealed the gummy interior. It's a little frustrating when the starter seems to be doing well, then as soon as I mix it with anything else (like more rye flour and water) it seems to stop whatever it was doing. The mother culture was ignored in the fridge for about a month and when I took a bit out to build the starter it grew like gangbusters. Giving it another feed just seemed to stop it in its tracks, though.
There was some diastatic malt (coarsely ground) in the Pumpernickel, but that didn't seem to help at all as this one had almost no rise. And I've tried both store-bought dark rye flour (Rogers) and my own stone-ground organic rye, and haven't noticed an appreciable difference. Silly bread...
Sounds to me like the mother starter needs a little TLC at room temps (76°F) with slow and careful building for a few days. Be sure to hang on to (and keep chilling) the present Mother until the new Mother is behaving itself.
I wouldn't force a discard with the feeding either, just a rounded teaspoon and a few spoons of water and flour watching for aromas and peaking before adding more water and flour when it's ripe and hungry. Vary the food source or combine to include some of the various rye flours. Sniff and taste the raw flours first to make sure they are not rancid.
I need more detail on the recipes, temps and timing to find out what might have happened but most likely the starter was rushed. Did you include any vinegar or lemon juice with the rye? Rogers recommends it with their rye flour. I would work on the starter and after a few days, try again with the recipe. Some of the additions, with high mineral content and less gluten may give you an even weaker rye matrix that ferments faster than normal or making it difficult to trap gas.
If you could get a cleaner cut on the rye crumb and another photo several days after baking, that might be easier to read. Use a sharp straight blade.
Mini
It has to be disappointing when the loaves look so good and then you get that unexpected gummy bit. It'll probably take a bit of experimenting to see what you need to tweak to get the results that you want, but it is wonderful for your customer that you are willing to do the experiments to come up with great rye options.
I was quite serious about me not learning to bake if you were nearby --- it was the fact that I couldn't find a baker (including "German" bakeries) closer than Winnipeg who didn't look at me like I'd grown a second head when I asked for a 100% rye loaf --- and who didn't laugh at me when I suggested that it was possible to supply a Westphalian pumpernickel that didn't include at least a few hundred grams of coffee, molasses, and assorted other non-rye ingredients --- that led me to this site and then to creating a starter and starting to bake! I would have been more than happy to support a local artisan or small business if I could have gotten the 100% rye and pumpernickel loaves that I was craving - but had to learn to do it myself since buying wasn't an option.
I really hope that your customers realize how fortunate that they are to have you available and willing to create really good breads that suit their particular tastes and preferences. You sharing your knowledge and your challenges and solutions here makes newbies like me on the site very fortunate, too.
Many thanks - and keep baking happy!
... pictures of your rye bakes? It sounds like you've done a lot of experimenting and trying different things, and It would be very interesting to see what worked (or didn't) for you.
of a 100% rye bake - since it didn't occur to me to start taking pics until after I had been playing around for a while! This was done following Mini Oven's formula, and was just as I was finishing the loaf:
I had tried a few other very high % or 100% ryes prior to this (from the Rye Baker site), and they tasted okay but I just wasn't getting any kind of rise or lightness of crumb. Basically, I was producing tasty battle-breads, but the hydration levels and timing just weren't right for my (lack of) skill level, my house temps, and my flours.
I am a rank newbie to the baking thing (with lots of experience of eating fabulous 100% ryes and Westphalian pumpernickels, thanks to some now-retired or passed away bakers from my home-town of Winnipeg), but I have been deliberately experimenting (playing!) with different things each week. I've got a couple of levains happening right now, both from my 100% rye 66% hydration NMNF starter that has been in my fridge since February 10. They are both at 100% hydration, one has been built using my home-milled whole rye kernels and the other using the Roger's Dark Rye flour. I took note of Mini's advice here on your blog, and started with just 3g of the starter and have been very gradually adding a little bit of water and a little bit of flour, and just letting it take its own sweet time in responding. It didn't look like it was doing anything for the first 2 builds (6 hours apart), then they doubled overnight after the 3rd build. I just fed them again at 10:30 this morning, my kitchen is at 20 deg C, and the whole rye has grown about 20% already while the Roger's one is only up about 5-10%. I seriously think that it's the lack of nutrients from the lack of bran in the refined dark flour that gives the yeast less food to grow on, especially since my levains built from the same starter but using home milled whole wheat flour are even quicker to respond than the ones built with whole rye.
Ya know - you had such a fabulous all-rye bake earlier this year, using the same recipes. If I remember correctly, you had just been creating the starter, so it had been out and coddled for a while. I suspect that following Mini's advice and giving your rye starter a few days of coddling will let you get the same great results again... Did you happen to take note of your timing on using the levain (right at peak, before peak, 10 hours later?)??
Thanks again for sharing the great and not-so-great things that happen in your bakery - I learn a lot from the steps that you take to get better and better results!
Best,
Laurie
Next time I get the urge to do a 100% rye bake, I will follow your advice to be more attentive with my rye starter. I think it's a lot more picky than my wheat starter! I need to take more careful note of timings, temperature and hydration levels. And Laurie - your rye bread looks wonderful!
Wendy
And the pumpernickel has a fabulous and oh-so-interesting looking crumb. That is the look of a bread that wants to sell itself!
alan
Yes, those three malts really add to the interest (and flavour) of the crumb. I just need to get the texture of the whole rye berries to the point where you don't risk a filling when chewing it!
than other breads I think even though it is a mix, wait a bit, dump in pan, dome up enter and wait a bit more - then bake bread - Low and slow or not. But when it comes out right it is the best bread here is and nothing is even close. I just takes some practice, getting the acid up and the amylase under control. You will have it all under control soon enough.
Well done and happy baking
than other breads I think even though it is a mix, wait a bit, dump in pan, dome up enter and wait a bit more - then bake bread - Low and slow or not. But when it comes out right it is the best bread here is and nothing is even close. I just takes some practice, getting the acid up and the amylase under control. You will have it all under control soon enough.
Well done and happy baking
For the support and advice - that's why I come here! I usually decide that I'm not going to bother with the whole rye breads and then, after a while, I get curious and try again. :) Next go-round, I'll try some of the things you've suggested and post again. Meanwhile I've got a large batch of Deli Rye to bake this week, for another group of customers. That one is much more reliable, with a multi-build starter that alternates bread flour and rye flour for feeds.
You might want to think about thickening up the mother starter making it more firm. It will initially slow down with a feeding (sound familiar?) but then pick up speed again after a few feeds. Aim for a thicker paste with more flour and less water and give it counter time to peak testing the top dome ever so often to make sure it isn't collapsed already underneath. This will increase the natural yeast population for more lift in the dough.
With successive bakes it is easy to let the fermenting time go longer. Try to get them into the oven a little bit sooner and wait for the oven spring to finish the rising. Are you docking any of the loaves?