The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Stretch and Fold

Sander's picture
Sander

Stretch and Fold

Hi everyone,

 

As I've mentioned in previous posts I live in Saigon and it's always HOT and HUMID here (excuse the capital letters :-) )

I find that works in my favour as I have no trouble getting a new starter going in no time. It also shortens fermentation which actually cuts my bulk ferment in half. I only work on a dough (after autolyse) for 1h30 which is very welcome when combining baking with a full-time job.

I still retard in the fridge overnight so the flavour development and further processing of the dough still happens. 

I can't, however, do too many stretch and folds because of this. Respecting 30' interval time I only do two turns.

I have been doing 'slap and folds' right after adding the starter to create strength, though I feel the dough is less "stretchy" at the end of the bulk ferment. Most bread still turn out excellent though :-).

My question being: 

Is 'slap and fold' a way to strengthen and layer the gluten as S&F does or not really?

If not, any suggestions on how to approach this differently? 

To clarify a summary of my process:

 

@0' Mix flour, starter, water (70%)

@30' water (3%), salt

Slap and fold 

@60' S&F

@90' S&F

@120' shape (with minimal bench rest)

 

My only thoughts so far have been to extend the autolyse by mixing in the morning and resting in the fridge for 12 hours and adding the starter with the salt. This would give the gluten time to develop and wouldn't give give the starter that head start.

All suggestions welcome.

Thanks in advance,

Sander

 

jimbtv's picture
jimbtv

Stretching and folding dough helps development in a few ways.

If you were to use an electric mixer right after you did your final mix and run it on a moderate speed for a few minutes, you would develop the gluten quickly. This is great if you want to get your bread into the oven an hour later but then there really isn't any time to develop flavors through fermentation. Most of us "artisans" here at TFL are trying to develop flavor so gluten development has to be slowed down so that it coincides with flavor development. If we were to develop gluten quickly then let it stand for several hours, the gluten would break down and we'd get flavorful but flat loaves.

Stretching and folding also helps to redistribute the leavening and the original ingredients. Yeast and/or bacteria will consume the nutrients closest to them and S & F's help to provide a fresh supply.

It's all about timing and that is a hard thing to demonstrate in words. Many of us, including me, continue to adjust our formulas and processes all the time, in an effort to adapt to new ingredients and an ever-changing baking environment. Retarding slows things down and higher temps in Siagon probably speed things up. As I have learned, and others will agree, build and bake according to the dough development and not the clock. In my view you can learn this through apprenticeship or through a lot of trial and error. There is nothing right or wrong with either method.

 

Jim

kendalm's picture
kendalm

I started out religiously strecthing and folding but after a bit of research - focused on flavor development ditched manual kneading for the mixer (also because I'm lazy and don't care to get a workout). What I learned was in French artisan bakeries, they have developed a mixing plan fully for the purpose of developing flavor and that involves typically a long slow cycle (8-10 minutes) followed by a very quick and aggressive fast mix (2-3 minutes). By this time your dough will develop fantastic gluten structure and avoid excessive oxidation and flavor loss. Additionally I started using imported French t55 and t65 and also noticed that timing wise the 8 minute slow and 2 minute fast mix was spot on - ie the flour almost magically came together in the final 2 minutes whereas with no matter which american ap would take a lot longer time on final and never form as beautifully glutenized ball. Btw after this mixing there are still 2 stretch and folds but the point is that flavor can be developed really well with a mixer.

Another thing I want to point out is that I am ridiculously critical about flavor and always striving to get an authentic taste from my bread (I am referring to what is abundantly obvious when eating bread from a boulangerie pretty much anywhere in france).

So just wondering since you sort of indicating that developing gluten quickly is detrimental to flavor whereas I have come to discover and strive to develop gluten in the shortest possible time (at the final 2 minute mix) I always understood that pretty much everything else is a slow process (including slow cold bulk rising) but as for gluten the quicker the better at least in this little home lab ?

jimbtv's picture
jimbtv

I guess one of the great things about making bread is that it is so personal. What tastes good to you may not be the result that I am trying to achieve, and there is no right or wrong in our different approaches.

This is my understanding and my justification.

Every time we mix water with wheat flour the clock begins to tick. Gluten strands begin to form and over time reach a peak of performance - a point where they will provide the best structure for a risen bread. Handling dough more aggressively and more frequently will cause the gluten to develop faster. We all know that. At some point in time the gluten begins to break down and we end up on the wrong side of the support structure curve.The faster and more aggressively we handle the dough, the sooner we will push our dough onto the wrong side of the curve.

If the flavor I desire requires a transformation of ingredients, essentially a longer fermentation process, then time will dictate my gluten development process and schedule. I too am striving for that peak point of gluten development but at the same time my flavor components are peaking. Because of this I have to handle the dough more gently and less often.

Last November I attended a french bread class at King Arthur Flour, under the tutelage of Jeffrey Hamelman and James Macguire. On the last day we simultaneously made 4 batches of baguettes. One batch was a simple flour, water, salt and yeast, and it was all hand mixed. Another batch was made using a levain instead of yeast and mixed in a spiral mixer. The third incorporated a levain and yeast (pate) and it too was mixed in a spiral mixer. The last was like the first, yeast only, but processed in the spiral mixer at a relatively high speed for about 10 minutes.

The first batch in the oven was the high speed mix, followed by the pate, then the levain, and finally the yeasted hand mix that underwent a series of stretch and folds over time. After cooling we all gathered round a table, cut into each baguette and provided commentary on what we saw and what we tasted.

The best formed was the high speed mix. The crumb was dense and snow white, and the flavor was bland. No one voted this as their favorite. The one voted best by far was the hand mixed yeasted baguette. The structure was good, the crumb was open and cream-colored, and the flavor was excellent. Personally I preferred the pate because it provided the best combination of structure and taste - at least to my liking.

As a group we determined that longer fermentation times with less handling resulted in a better baguette, but as I mentioned at the beginning of this long reply, each of us may prefer something different. I do not feel that any of us are right or wrong. We just have different preferences.

 

Jim

Sander's picture
Sander

That sounds like an excellent day at the bakery.  --

I hope I'll find my way to similar classes soon. 

Thanks for sharing the experience. 

 

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

I'm interested in this question, because as kendalm points out, many methods are predicated on the belief that oxidation saps flavor, and so should be minimized, with mixing time balanced to develop gluten only enough so that fermentation with stretch and folds can finish the job.

Yet slap and folds are favored by many, and this method is specifically designed to incorporate air while developing gluten.  Can we have it both ways?  Is flavor degraded by slap and folds?  I think those who use it would say no to the latter.

As to the questions of mixing raised by kendalm and the stretch and folds raised by sander, Hamelman adheres to the reduced oxidation theory.  His machine mixing method for the home baker is generally 4-5 minutes on first speed, 2-4 minutes on second speed (so shorter initial mixing time than the French method described, but same idea); his stretch and folds are 1-2.  I follow the mixing method, but extend the number of stretch and folds, particularly because most later published books I've seen call for it, and because I omit the commercial yeast called for in his recipes, so the fermentation process is longer than his recipes call for.

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

I usually bake four or more (up to 14) of any one kind of bread at a time, as I sell my breads, so I tend to mix the larger batches in my 30 quart mixer (planetary Univex). I mix for varying amounts of time (less for lower hydration, more for higher hydration as a general rule) but usually until the dough pulls away from the sides of the bowl. I will then do two or three stretch & folds over the next couple of hours, just to make sure the dough is smooth and stretchy. I get rave reviews for my bread so I don't think the flavour is compromised to any great extent. :)

I have also on occasion done stretch & folds 15 to 20 minutes apart, if I'm pressed for time. As long as the dough has relaxed enough to be stretchy, it seems to work fine.

old baker's picture
old baker

When I was in the Army in Vietnam in the late 1960's, our crew stopped at a little village every morning on the way to a construction project.  I doubt that the village had electricity, much less refrigerators.  We bought a couple of baguettes from a roadside stand to eat with our C-Ration lunches.  It was wonderful bread and made our rations palatable.  In fact, remembering that bread is one of the main reasons why I recently started baking.

I have no idea whether the bread was stretched and folded or how it was developed.  But I loved it and am still trying to bake bread that tasted as I remember that bread.

So there must be a way to get excellent results in that HOT and HUMID land.

Sander's picture
Sander

Thanks for all the replies guys,

As always helpful insights from all.

My breads turned out tasting fantastic (or so I think at least :-) ) the only thing that sometimes happen is a sideways rise. I mean I don't get the oven spring I want but my breads grow sideways as well as up into disk shaped breads rather then nice domes. 

I think that is because of over-proofing. I made a small loaf with perfect oven spring and bigger loaves that turned out flatter from the same dough. This made me think  it took the bigger loaves a bit too long to cool down in the fridge.

It is also to be noted that I work with a toaster oven and so getting high temperatures is almost impossible.

After reading Jim's post I started thinking the sideways rise may also be from not enough strength to hold up a large loaf. 

As suggested I'm trying very hard to see what the dough wants at the time of working, which is why I'm already on such a quick schedule.

It's a work in progress and indeed lots of trial and error. :-)

Cheers,

Sander

HPoirot's picture
HPoirot

how are you proofing your dough? also, if you're baking in an toaster oven it could be as you're guessing, not enough heat.

do you steam your dough during baking? sideways rise might also be your top crust forming before your yeast has had a chance to expend all its gases, especially in a toaster where heat is direct instead of all around in an oven.