The Fresh Loaf

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Forkish Overnight Country Brown. Fail after fail.

tinpanalley's picture
tinpanalley

Forkish Overnight Country Brown. Fail after fail.

Other than having you here with me in my kitchen I don't know quite how to show you what my wife and I keep coming up with. I'll try to be brief but with useful info.

Kitchen sits at roughly 23-24C. We follow the book to the letter. Everything seems fine.
Problem 1: Proofed, separated dough sticks to the banneton and 2nd linen lined basket. Placed in oven anyway to see what would happen.
Problem 2: Nice flavour (bit sour) but flat as focaccia and dense as damp banana bread. Actual chunks of barely cooked dough inside.
This happens to us two times.

I contact Forkish himself on Twitter. He says, "if you change the quantity of anything you're making someone else's bread. But try a different flour." Ok, we do. We get Robin Hood's bread flour (we live in Quebec)

Attempt 2
Autolyse feels much MUCH better when folding. Let it sit overnight. 13 hours later, we go to separate. Dough looks like his videos but wetter. Not like the dry airy pillow he has. Fluffy, yes, but stickier than his. We separate, we let proof. I instantly think it's too damp. Again, NEITHER dough wants to come out of its basket. The second one actualy tears apart into a mass of wet dough. Impossible to put it back together. It is as wet as if it had just been mixed. Second one stays together better, we bake it.
Flavour is better than it's ever been. This is up there with the best bread I've ever tasted. But again, 2 inches thick. But airy, nice crust. Just not risen enough. At all.

We simply don't know what else to do. Ok, so the flour needed to change, clearly. Our levain is fantastic. Used in other breads and recipes it works great.

Please. Please. I implore you. If anyone can think of anything or wants more info to help, please do. We feel like we're SO close. We just want to see a nicely raised loaf. Don't know what else to say other than that we do everything he says. I cook a lot. My instinct tells me there is too much moisture in the dough. But the guy himSELF says not to change the quantities. I just don't know.

Anyone?... :) Thank you.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

for Robin Hood flour as I have used that particular flour with that recipe. The problem is his timing. His timings only work if your kitchen is around 70 F or 21C. So the lesson is to go by his description rather than his timing. You will need a staight sided container to be able to tell if the dough has doubled or tripled. I need to check my book for what he asks in that recipe. Okay I checked... he says that the dough need to almost triple. Try going for slightly over doubled. So considering your room temperature, your bulk fermentation may only need 8 hours rather than the 12-15 he asks for. 

Secondly, your sticking problems will be solved if you use half Rice flour, half regular flour to dust your baskets, bannetons, linen, what have you. Don't be afraid to be liberal with the flour when shaping and dusting the baskets as you are learning. You can cut back once you get the hang of it. (I still use lots of flour when my dough is sticky)

As to chunks of dough not cooked inside, check your oven temperature. It might be off. And if you do follow his cooking directions with a Dutch oven, they do work. You also need to get a probe thermometer and cook your loaves till they are at 205 F. You may need to cook your loaves longer.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

He really pushes the Proofing times. Bake before he tells you to do it. Once again your kitchen is warmer than his, so your loaves will proof faster. 

Bart Tichelman's picture
Bart Tichelman

What Danni3II3 said.

I had to scale back both bulk and final proof times when I started with his recipes. I bulk ferment in the round Cambro container with straight sides, and shape after increasing to 2.5 times (6 - 8 hours for me, not 12 - 15 hours!).  For final proof, bake when the dough passes the "poke" test, not after an arbitrary time.  With a 6 hour bulk fermentation, the final proof took 4 - 5 hours for me, although I now almost always do the final proof in the fridge (12 - 18 hours at 40F, giving me better flavor and timing flexibility).

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

I agree with Danni and Bart that Forkish pushes his recipes to the maximum. I always cut back on the fermentation time, and sometimes even reduce the amount of levain, especially if the ambient temperature is high.

If we take Forkish's comments to the logical extreme, then if anyone other than Forkish makes the recipe, it is not Forkish's bread.  This is your bread and you have to do what works for you. Don't be afraid to make adjustments. The bread you end up with will be just fine.

-Brad

tinpanalley's picture
tinpanalley

Ok...

We will try again. Just a few thoughts.
- I feel like this proofing and fermentation time variation is something that should be expressed blatantly, and in greater detail, in the book. Maybe a chart or something. The US alone has several different climate variations where people might buy this book. Anyway, just an observation or note to the editor if they ever happen upon this forum.
- We'll go with Danni3ll3's suggestion on fermentation and proofing. See where that gets us. That last one we made, which I'm chewing on now, is just too good even a day later to give up now.

Thank you all so much. You've instilled us with the energy to try again.

PatMax's picture
PatMax

TinPan , for comparison  , you could try a basic bloomer loaf , white or brown .  Its' a good bread  for getting the drift of the basics .

 Often  when looking to do a new bread type , I follow a commercial yeast recipe for it  using  commercial yeast ,  and following it pretty much to the letter .  Then , armed with the knowledge of how it is supposed  to be at any given stage , I set about making  a wild-yeast bread based on that  , plus  my accumulated  knowledge and skills .  For me , the  end result  of  bread baking  is less about  with the final  stage of  shaping and baking , than it is to do with dough making .

This link has some guides ,  videos too .

https://www.google.co.nz/search?rlz=1C1CHBD_enNZ721NZ721&biw=1357&bih=654&q=+loaf+bloomer+recipes&oq=+loaf+bloomer+recipes&gs_l=serp.12..0i8i30k1l2.93...

 

cheers , Patmax 

tinpanalley's picture
tinpanalley

Followed the tips you guys gave and today has been the test... I'll share pics later. Sorry, not sure if you're all that interested but I'm so thankful to you guys for the input. My wife and I feel like you're here with us looking over our shoulders. :)
Questions, in the interim..

1. The second boule going in the fridge as the book says while the first bakes... necessary? And when it comes out, straight in the rewarmed dutch oven? No risk of thermal shock?
2. Chad Robertson follows pretty much the same recipe but he cuts his tops with a lame. Will that release too much air from the bread?

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

is all about!

1. Don't worry about thermal shock. I always bake mine right out of the fridge. And yes, I would refrigerate the loaf because Forkish really pushes the proofing on those loaves.  I would even pop it into the fridge earlier than he says. 

2. If you proof the boule seam side down, there is no need for scoring the dough since it will naturally split at the seams. Remember the loaf ends up opposite of how you proof it. That is actually my preferred way of doing things. Robertson has you proof the boule seam side up so when you bake, you need to score the top to tell the dough where to split otherwise it will find a really ugly spot to split and you will end up with a lopsided loaf. As to releasing too much air, that is a danger only if you overproof the loaf, which, by the way, happens more often than not With new bakers. 

IceDemeter's picture
IceDemeter

Even those of us without the experience to comment are quietly watching and cheering you on!  We all learn from each others' experience here, and want to see everyone succeed.

Now - pics, or it didn't happen!!!

tinpanalley's picture
tinpanalley

...hmmm... don't know why but I'm having trouble posting photos here. What service does everyone use?

IceDemeter's picture
IceDemeter

... how it works from a phone, but from my hard drive I just use The Fresh Loaf server for my pics: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2960/posting-photos-faq  and head down to the section titled: If the images are on your hard drive and you don't have a place to host them...

Basically, it's just hit the little tree icon in the Comment tool bar for Insert / Edit Image, then hit the Browse icon to the right of the Image URL space in the pop-up, then hit the Upload button on the next pop-up, hit Browse to search the drive for the photo, hit Open to choose the photo, hit the Upload button to load it to their server, then use the Insert File button to bring it back to the original pop-up and in to the comment.  It looks complicated when it's typed out here, but it's really intuitive once you get started.  The nice thing is that it's really easy to put multiple photos on to the server when in the "upload" section, so that they are already there when you want to insert them in different parts of the entry.

Hope this helps!

tinpanalley's picture
tinpanalley

Ok, so here's the final result...

Boule #1, the one we've carved into. Just...delicious beyond description. Without question among the best breads my wife and I have ever had. And why not, all the necessary ingredients for this fresh from the bakery taste are there. Just had to get timings down. We've been buying delicious bread from bakeries in three different countries for the last 13 years (New York, Paris, and now Quebec City) and felt it was time to try our own. In case anyone's interested, right now the verdict is that pound for pound, considering quality and variety, Quebec and New York have the best breads in the places we've lived.

And this is Boule #2, which we have yet to slice into. This is the one I experimented with the lame on. Interesting result. Didn't really "work", so to speak. What I mean by that is that it doesn't seem to have really created that much of a marked difference between cut section and non-cut crust. Any ideas on why? It was a rather moist cut in the dough when I did it.

tinpanalley's picture
tinpanalley

Additional questions...
1. The bulk fermentation overnight never really got beyond double in size. This was at 23.6C. Should we have gotten more?
2. What would happen if you took BOTH dough balls an didn't separate them? Just cooked them as one giant boule.
3. What are some suggestions for how to store that second boule to keep it as fresh as possible?

Thank you!!! Really, sincerely, please give me any feedback or tips you think could help. I have to learn.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

1. Maybe but double is just fine for most breads. That's what I aim for. 

2. You end up with a miche which is a very large boule. You would need to cook it longer at possibly a lower temperature and you would need to find a very big Dutch oven or a pizza stone with a large bowl to cover it. 

3. Freeze it. Wrap it really well in plastic wrap and then either foil or a ziplock bag. When you thaw it out, leave it in the wrapping till it is at room temperature. You will see it stays very fresh! Last thing, do not put it in the fridge!

tinpanalley's picture
tinpanalley

We have a food saver. Would that work in place of the plastic wrap?

And thanks for the kind words. If you could only taste it!... :)

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

I have never used one but if it doesn't squish the bread, it should be fine. 

tinpanalley's picture
tinpanalley

We're gonna just do the cling film then foil and in a large freezer safe ziploc.

So that'll keep for a few weeks maybe?

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

Just be sure it is completely thawed before you unwrap it. You want all of the moisture to go back into the bread. 

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

I tried it once, and believe me, sucking all the air out of a loaf of bread is not good for it! :)

pmccool's picture
pmccool

is that the loaf expanded rapidly and early.    That gave the newly exposed dough in the slash areas time to brown almost as much as the unslashed areas.  Good bake!

Paul

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

but you have two beautiful loaves there and that crumb is to die for!! Good job!!

tinpanalley's picture
tinpanalley

Thank you everyone. We've made bread twice since then with these new timings and each team it's been delicious. I have had problems twice with the dough not wanting to come out of the bannetons. Don't know if the dough is too wet, too proofed, too much bulk fermentation, not enough folds, too warm when proofing, but because of you guys at least I know now that those are all possibilities! Learning, learning, for sure. :)
Any ideas on that sticking in the banneton? It is floured, I'd say sufficiently.

pmccool's picture
pmccool

is almost as good as Teflon.  Other gluten-free flours would probably work, too.  Wheat flours tend to cause more sticking. 

Paul

jimbtv's picture
jimbtv

I second Paul's comments on rice flour. It has made a world of difference for me.

A trick I learned was to break in a new banneton by lightly spraying water on the surface then generously applying rice flour. Let it dry for a few hours, shake out any excess, then lightly distribute rice flour again before each use. You only have to use the spray bottle once.

Jim

HPoirot's picture
HPoirot

so i have nothing else to add except:

very nice looking loaves!!

tinpanalley's picture
tinpanalley

Thank you! Gonna bake again in a couple of days.
This was the last effort.

tinpanalley's picture
tinpanalley

I've gotten some rice flour. Very eager to use them on my banettons but will I have to completely wipe them clean of flour? There are places where tiny bits of dough that was too wet (early on in my learning process) has remained glued in between wedges. What's a safe tool -- or rather, a clever trick -- for scraping old dough out of banettons?

With regards to the bulk fermentation time. Switching from Forkish's 12-15 hours to my 8 hrs because of being at 23 degrees, how much do I need to vary that if the temperature changes in either direction? Is it something quantifiable such that I can say 1 hr per degree or something? Or is it more exponential than that? Less?

tinpanalley's picture
tinpanalley

I've got a question to add here. Adding to my previous bread making tests. We wanted to try a local organic bread flour made by La Milanaise. They call it "Sifted Wheat Bread Flour". They also have a "Whole Wheat" so that cleared up our initial confusion of whether or not this was whole wheat or an unbleached white. In any event, we're finding the fermented dough a tad, not much, but a tad thicker, denser maybe. It's not "moving" like the Robin Hood white bread flour from the photos above. And more importantly it seems to proof REALLY fast. In less than an hour we were doing a finger test and seeing it coming back slowly and not all the way. The bread that we baked for the first time with it, respecting all the above methods, was fine but a bit smaller, a bit denser. The crust was perfectly fine.
Can anyone take a guess at why we're seeing this difference in the proofing and in the final bread? Does anyone know this particular flour? Would the nutritional info help?

tinpanalley's picture
tinpanalley

I'm just gonna open a new thread for this. It's unrelated enough. If a mod could delete the last post from 06-18-2017 7:55pm I'd appreciate it.

tinpanalley's picture
tinpanalley

We came here 6 years ago when we were starting our sourdough bread making journey. Our starter is now 6 and a half years old, we've made countless breads since then and ventured out into others and I just wanted to say a general thanks to the people here who helped us. :)