The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Steam spray...

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Steam spray...

I just received an email from SFBI.. this was part of the message.. It made me wonder - how many of you spray the surface of your loaf with water just before loading it into the oven (without a dutch oven)? And to be clear, I mean spray the loaf with water mist - separate from adding water to a tray to create steam within the oven space. It seems like the smart thing to do. Would there be a down side?

 

IceDemeter's picture
IceDemeter

I personally can't think of what would be a downside for spritzing the dough itself just prior to baking - other than going overboard and drowning the poor thing.

I use an old roasting pan instead of a cast iron combo cooker or dutch oven, since it is light enough for me to handle safely (and I can't be trusted with any of the steam generating schemes that involve pouring boiling water or moving steaming towels).  It doesn't seal nearly as well as a DO and doesn't hold as much heat (I pre-heat it, on top of a thick aluminum cookie sheet), but it seems to accomplish what I want it to.  I do use a mister to spray the dough after I've scored it and again just before I put the lid on in the oven --- and I notice a difference if I forget! 

When I don't mist it, then I find that I end up with a harder crust overall, and that I can't get the "dark bake" that I like even with an extra 10 minutes at with the oven still on.  I couldn't say for sure, but I have the impression that I don't get quite as much oven spring when I forget.  I still get good bread, but it does make a small overall difference in final appearance and texture.

bread1965's picture
bread1965

I guess I agree with you.. I don't normally 'spritz' my loaves but did on my last bake and loved the crust and the rise was great. And after reading this tonight I thought to myself 'why don't I just do this for all my bakes (even those in a dutch oven)?  That's why I was curious if everyone did this and I just didn't realize it was happening.. thanks for sharing.. bake happy..

chapstick's picture
chapstick

I read this somewhere too. I found I've been getting a better rise and a better "ear" since I started spraying the loaf with water. I suspect it creates steam better than when i spray directly into the oven too.

I also read that using a wet knife helps with scoring, so I spray the knife and dough first, score, spray the top of the loaf again before putting in the oven. I haven't noticed any downside. 

bread1965's picture
bread1965

thank you for posting your thoughts.. !!

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I am happy with result - I use an old enameled steel roaster as DO.

Leslie

alfanso's picture
alfanso

No Dutch Oven either.  I employ only the steam created from a Sylvia's Steaming Towel and a tray full of pre-heated lava rocks doused with water after the dough is loaded into the oven.  Virtually never an issue with oven spring either.

AlanG's picture
AlanG

I also use Sylvia's Steaming Towel method.  Soaked hot towels go into the oven five minutes before the loaves and when I open the oven door to load the dough, steam comes pouring out.  I also add about 3/4 cup of boiling water to the towel pan right after the loaves are in.  This generates more than enough steam.

bread1965's picture
bread1965

3/4 of a cup doesn't seem like a lot of water.. I'll keep this in mind.. thanks!

 

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Hi Al.. thanks for posting.. I've always felt that this method left something lacking.. not enough steam.. How many cups of water do you think you're putting into the towel tray and lava rocks?

bikeprof's picture
bikeprof

I have spritzed loaves and it certainly didn't seem to hurt, but I generally don't as I use a peel and the spritzing can do bad things if the peel gets wet and sticks.  

I also think that one of the reasons for using steam is that it should create an even/consistent level of moisture over multiple loaves...not a problem with one loaf on parchment, but with more loaves and using a peel or conveyer loader, that wouldn't work so well.  It also may not create a sufficiently sustained moist environment in the oven, so some additional steam might help (an easy experiment to conduct).

In any case, I'm not coming up with reasons why it would be a problem in terms of its effects on crust/spring/bloom...

bread1965's picture
bread1965

.. I often load using parchment paper so I wouldn't have a peel sticking problem.. I usually bake one or two loaves so I think spritzing the loaves and the walls of the oven, and having a hot tray that i dump water into after loading the loaf is what seems good.. I'll try a loaf this way, and another with just a tray of water, no spritzing.. thanks for your thoughts!

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

I highly recommend the lava rocks. An amazing amount of steam is generated. 

bread1965's picture
bread1965

But I'll give them a try, they're not expensive.. how much water do you pour over them?

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

 I have two pans filled with rocks, and I heat water, fill a cocktail shaker's worth, which is probably 2 cups and put in the first pan, and then I load the bread, then fill it again and put it in the other pan. 

bread1965's picture
bread1965

two pans it is.. that's smart actually.. thank you..

 

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Thanks. But it's from Hamelman: always steam the oven before and after loading. 

bread1965's picture
bread1965

two trays.. thanks again..

Wild-Yeast's picture
Wild-Yeast

A while back I tried "spritzing" the loaf just before baking. I also tried all the other methods except the lava rock one. I started a review of the literature which generally revealed that steam keeps the outside crust elastic during the oven spring period allowing for maximum volumetric expansion yielding the "artisan" appelation. 

Wood Fired Oven - Steam Generation

Further review on the subject brought up the fact that wood fired ovens produced the same effect without steam. Why? The explanation is that a WF oven is fully loaded with loaves of bread and then sealed off to bake. The baking bread provides its own steam. A home oven is vented removing the water vapor generated by the "steaming/baking" loaf drying the crust prematurely interrupting the freedom of the oven spring expansion. Spraying the loaf prior to baking only creates a water roux at the surface as the water dehydrates which will add a little crunch and provides only a slight cushion to keeping the crust elastic. I don't think it's the best solution for the home baker.

Dutch Oven - Tartine Method

The cast iron Dutch Oven method (aka Tartine method) encloses the baking loaf keeping the environment with a high degree of water vapor yielding the desired results. Removing the lid or the loaf entirely from the cast iron allows the loaf to finish the bake in the dry oven environment which browning the loaf in what is called the Maillard reaction. The trouble is the loaf takes on the shape of its cast iron mold. 

The Cloching Method

The method I have been using at home for the last 7 years is called "cloching" (French for bell). It consists of placing an enclosure that fits over the loaf but allows the loaf to enlarge without constraint. The cloche can be as simple as an aluminum foil "tent" over the loaf. The method is used in conjunction with a baking stone which provides a similar heat source as does the wood fired oven from the bottom. The method consists of making a containment structure that maintains the loafs self generated steam keeping the crust soft and elastic over the oven spring expansion phase.

Steam Pan Cloche Solution

The best result I've found for regular baking is the use of a suitably sized stainless steel restaurant style steam table pan. Its surface is prepared by spraying with PAM and wiping the surface with a paper towel this keeps the dough from sticking to the pan in the event that it contacts the enclosure's surface. Don't wash the pan as the PAM forms a non-stick surface that will last many bakes before a touch-up coat is needed. Spritz the interior of the cloche with a little water prior to placing it over the slashed and waiting loaf on the stone. One caution is if your oven has a glass viewing window be sure to cover it with a folded towel to prevent water from falling on the hot glass and cracking it.

After 10 to 15 minutes the cloche can be removed and the bake allowed to finish. Be careful when removing the cloche - it contains very hot steam and can cause a nasty burn if you're not careful. Remember to pour the steam "up" and away from your face and arms.

Bonne Cuisson,

Wild-Yeast 

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Thank you - what a great reply. I've cooked with a WFO, dutch oven and cloching method. I think they're all good in different ways. I have a deep stainless steel bowl I've used for the cloche method, but haven't used PAM as I think it's "tall enough" to use without the dough hitting the bowl.. I haven't spritzed it, but I'll give that a try..

Thank you for the reply.. bake happy!

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

First of all, steaming is elementary to the process, whether added by the baker or from the bread's own hydration (covered baking).  I bake uncovered on stone with steam added before and after loading (Hamelman method).  I do this with lava rocks in a gas oven.  The steam does not last long yet I get good oven spring.  The time I tried the towel method no visible steam was produced.  I'd certainly like to experiment more than I have, and I haven't baked bread in an electric oven since I was a kid (a very long time ago, sadly).

I disagree with WY's assessment of the Tartine method.  It hasn't worked well for me (burnt bottoms almost every time), but the bread is not expending to touch the surface in a typical recipe.  That many people succeed with this method is an understatement.

 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Filo,  are you preheat the combo cooker?  I don't follow the tartine recipes or methods, but have adopted the combo cooker, and I heat the bottom of the combo on my range top till it is about 200 to 300 F,  then place the dough, then add the top and into the oven.  I don't get burnt bottoms, and by only preheating the bottom for a few minutes, I avoid the risk of hitting 400F metal when loading the combo cooker into the oven.  

bread1965's picture
bread1965

I like Barry's comment to your post. But when I use a DO, I pre-heat it at 500 for almost an hour lid on, then take it out to load, re-cover and in she goes. I've only once had a burnt bottom and that was becuase I baked it too long as I got distracted on time. After I load, it's typically 20 minutes at 450 lid on, then another 20 - 30 minutes until it fully cooks with lid off.. I wonder if you oven temperature is off (ie hotter still) or if you're not lowering the temp after loading? You could try to cut a round of parchment paper to put at the bottom of the DO before loading the dough. Also, be sure you don't have the oven rack too low (ie: to close to the source of heat) - I usually have my rack in the middle of oven..

Thanks - bake happy!

 

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

I've tried all of that and they still burn. I had he oven calibration checked and it is fine. Parchment scorches to point of disintegration And sticks to bottoms. So I bake on stone with jo in my heart. Part of the fun is finding the best method for your environment. If I do DO again I will lower the heat though. 

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

That's very clever!  Thanks for the insight. 

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

I am skeptical about the claims made in the SFBI quote.  Some of it is correct, but some of it seems bogus too. Steam cooks the surface fast (much faster than dry air or most direct radiant sources), and as a result the surface is in fact no longer pliable (it will bend but also will fracture in tension which is what you need); it will not stretch.

Maillard reaction goes at temperatures above the boiling point of water so when that happens there is no local moisture so the claim as stated is a crock.  Just try to get any browning in a pan of water - impossible.

The crust if formed only when the water is depleted. A thicker crust requires that you get the moisture out of a thicker layer layer of dough on the surface.  You have never seen a crust form inside a loaf of bread. Only on the outside.

So be skeptical of what you read even from apparently authoritative sources - especiallhy when there is no documentation, or credible references, or repeatable experimental evidence provided. There is more BS being thrown than you probably recognize.

bread1965's picture
bread1965

It reminds me of a line an old fried taught me.. never believe anything you hear, anything you read and only half of hwat you see with your own two eyes.. I always remember that..

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

If you find it risky to add water to steam pans (with lava rocks or towels or whatever), use a long-spouted watering can to add the water. This has the additional benefit of keeping any drips safely away from the glass oven door, and you can also keep the door partly closed and just poke the spout in from the side of the oven.

macette's picture
macette

I am very new to bread making and have been teaching myself from YouTube . So after watching a noted baker using the pan of water in the bottom of the oven and a  spritz on the oven walls to create more steam I have been doing it too. Hopefully it's doing my bread good...

bread1965's picture
bread1965

I'm sure it will!  Adding steam to the oven will definitely help! When I began baking bread I used a dutch oven as a way to control the oven environment and focus on what was happening with the dough itself. Once I felt confident that my bread dough would bake well, I started experimenting with a pizza stone on top of which to bake my bread.. with steam of course.. It's a great journey and very rewarding.. welcome! Bake well, or at least bake happy! :)

 

macette's picture
macette

Thank you bread1965, I'm so glad I found this forum. I am kind of hooked on bread making at the minute and fully intend to try lots of different types and methods, it so relaxing and I enjoy using my mixer trouble is we can't eat it fast enough so I can make more....need to try raisin bread next...but need to get more confidence with my dough by look and feel still guessing at the minute.