Looking for some direction please
So, I decided to "graduate" to sourdough breads. :) I got what I think is a good starter from the folks at Breadtopia. It's been fed several times already (1:1:1 ratio), and after each feeding, after about 2-3 hrs it gets very active and bubbly, and goes on for hours, at least tripling in volume. My challenges are many, but first one is: I am unsure what exactly to do with the starter. The first loafs (in the photo above) followed a simple recipe I found somewhere on this site:
- 1 cup of starter (I took it 4 hrs after feeding, and it was still very active, and the remaining starter continued expanding for another 2-3 hrs)
- 1 cup of water
- 2 cups of flour
- 1 tsp of salt
This resulted in extremely wet and sticky dough, and doing back of the napkin calculations of what all those cups were in weight, I realized afterwards that this was probably at least 90% hydration! I tried slap-and-fold technique for about 15 min, with very little improvement in the dough, so I began adding flour, and after about 1/4 cup extra the dough became somewhat manageable. I then did 4 rounds of stretch-and-fold, each followed by 45 min rest, finishing with 1 hr BF. All this time, the dough was rising extremely slow (could it be because my house is on the cool side, about 70F?), until I put it into the oven set to Bread Proof (I believe that maintains around 90F).
I then divided the dough into two parts, pre-shaped for long loafs, set them on couche, and back into the oven set to Bread Proof for another hour. There was some rise, although not much, and the dough was still so wet that it even stuck to the couche in a couple of places!
I baked on 475F with steam at the beginning for 25 min. The dough exhibited surprisingly nice oven spring, and taste-wise and crumb-wise turned out just fine. Here's what it looked like done:
I would really appreciate it if someone could please point me in the right direction on the following:
- do I just use starter "as is", or do I first build a levain with it the night before, like I read in some recipes? If the latter, what proportions should I use? I ordered my scale today, so no more cups measuring! :-)
- what would be a good proportion for the starter:flour:water for the sourdough? What hydration is considered typical for these types of breads?
- A couple of days later I tried altering the recipe above by adding 1/4 cup of whole wheat flour, and used a longer BF period. The dough was still not elastic, and still very sticky, however the flavor of the bread was even better than the first time. Here're the photos. I wasn't really aiming for baguette-like shape, but every time I handled the dough, it just stretched and didn't have much "spring" at all.
I am obviously doing some (many? :-) ) things wrong, but what? I know the folks who have taken the time to read this far are real bread enthusiasts, and I am hoping that you'll nudge me in the right direction. :-)
Many thanks!
... and am impressed with just how well you managed with such a high hydration dough to start with! Kudos on your tasty results (and really - the taste is the most important thing).
Personally, I started out with trying the 1-2-3 style (you can search for it here on the site, but it's basically 1 part starter to 2 parts water to 3 parts flour - all by weight - so about 67% hydration if your starter is 100% and using 2% salt). It really is much, much easier to deal with recipes and formulas that are by weight (grams) or baker's percentages instead of trying to figure out volume measure such as cups.
I also had some encouraging success with the 65% hydration recipe and methods shown by site member Trevor J Wilson on his site Breadwerx.com (see "How to Get Open Crumb from Stiff Dough" as well as his other videos). I am gradually working my way up with hydration (tomorrow's bake is 75%, with 52% whole grains), since an accidental 85% a couple of weeks ago definitely highlighted my total and complete lack of the skills and experience needed to work with the higher levels. I suspect that my personal preferences and skills will have me topping out at around 80% hydration, or maybe just a bit higher depending on grains used, but am quite happy to experiment my way around until I consistently get what I like.
The best way that I've found for maintaining the starter is one created by site member dabrownman (search the site for No Muss No Fuss Starter). I will only be baking once per week, at the very most twice, so really appreciate his method of refrigerating a fairly stiff starter, using a fraction for each bake to build a levain, and only having to feed / refresh the main starter when it gets down to a minimal amount. For me, it just isn't workable to have to keep a room-temperature starter that needs to be fed at least twice per day and just discard most of it.
Again, well done on the results you got with such a difficult dough, and hopefully this gives you a bit of direction on where you might want to try next. Happy baking!
IceDemeter for the words of encouragement! I'll wait for a few days for my scale to arrive, and meanwhile will read up more on sourdough using your suggestions, and then practice more! :-)
two photos to the right! Alfanso is baguette king. Just look at them! A sight for sore eyes.
Best of luck.
I didn't quite understand your response. What did you mean by two photos to the right? And who is Alfanso?
If you look on the front page then two pictures to the right of yours is Alfanso's recent post. Here is a link http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/51038/tartine-baguettes-alfansostyle
When it comes to all things baguettes then he's the one to ask.
The crumb on your baguettes looks very nice indeed!
for your measurements, things will become much easier, and one great hurdle will have been made. Cup measurements are notoriously unreliable for reasons stated all over TFL. It is also a quickly learned skill to not adjust the water or flour by more than mere grams at most when trying to determine how you anticipate the dough should feel. Once you are comfortable with autolysing, you'll see how the flour will absorb the liquid before deciding on any adjustments. And so on.
I'll leave discussions about levains to the more seasoned folks on TFL, but will throw my hat in the ring for my suggestion for your question "What hydration is considered typical for these types of breads?".
Hydrations are all over the board, but if you are a beginning home baker, try to not head into the stratosphere before getting grounded with lower hydration doughs. Stick to hydrations of 65%-70% max. for a while until you understand what dough should feel like and what to anticipate. Grains like whole wheat are thirstier than plain AP flours, so they will absorb more water on average. I see too many folks get hung up on shooting for the stars in terms of very open crumb and/or very high hydration doughs without getting the feel for the more basic doughs and the qualities that they exhibit. Make sure that you are feeling accomplished at steps 1, 2 & 3 in your learning curve before jumping over to step 4 too early on. My estimation is that you may feel hamstrung early on, but you'll prosper in the long run by not jumping into the deep end of the pool too soon.
And BTW, I am more Roy of Baguette than Roi d'Baguette!
I am definitely going to start using the scales. I've ran into too many places already where the advice comes in terms of grams or %, and I could not use that before. The doughs with which I've been dealing before were in the 70-73% range, so I am OK with getting my hands covered in sticky dough and working it patiently until it becomes smooth and starts clearing the hands and the bowl. I have also made baguettes using the recipe from Breadtopia (around 63% hydration I believe), and they were of course much simpler. :-)
It was just the first couple of attempts at sourdough with recipes that were definitely pushing 80% or beyond were too much for me. Once the scale arrives, I'll try again.
Wow! Difficult enough to get used to sourdough but at 80% hydration even more so.
May I recommend this recipe with step-by-step instructions? https://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/sourdough-pain-naturel/
Enjoy! Once your scales arrive :)
was from here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com//lessons/myfirstsourdough. With 1 cup of 100% hydration starter, 1 cup of water, and 2 cups of flour, it looks like it was well over 90%. My calcs are these:
2 cups of flour = 250 g + 120 g from starter = 370 g of flour
1 cup of water = 240 g + 120 g from starter = 360 g of water
That's 97% of hydration, isn't it? No wonder I struggled! :-(
Seems very close to 100% hydration to me. His starter was very liquid too. Don't think that was 100% hydration either. Seems more!
The recipe I just sent to you plus scales should produce some lovely results. It's delicious.
Best of luck and looking forward!
From my own experience, when making the leap from commercial yeast to natural starter, I had a hard time getting past the fact that dough leavened with natural yeast does not tend to bulk ferment quite as drastically as it does with commercial yeast.
For me, at times it struggles to even rise to 1.5 in size. I had to learn to tell if the dough was ready by feel (finger dimple method).
Anyway, I think you did just fine. And the bread looks great, especially for having started out at such a high hydration.
Maybe rub in a bit more flour on the surface of the couche and/or banneton. That will help keep it from sticking.
At any rate, when she is ready, she will let you know. :)
Use white rice flour. IME it's far superior to wheat flour for the purposes of anti-sticking.
Also, linen appears to be the magic cloth. I bought a linen towel from Crate and Barrel - it's rather "rough" looking - but wet dough doesn't stick to it. I have to say that I was a bit shocked about the whole thing.
Anyhow, keep up the good work!
-Dave
From my own experience, when making the leap from commercial yeast to natural starter, I had a hard time getting past the fact that dough leavened with natural yeast does not tend to bulk ferment quite as drastically as it does with commercial yeast.
For me, at times it struggles to even rise to 1.5 in size. I had to learn to tell if the dough was ready by feel (finger dimple method).
Anyway, I think you did just fine. And the bread looks great, especially for having started out at such a high hydration.
Maybe rub in a bit more flour on the surface of the couche and/or banneton. That will help keep it from sticking.
At any rate, when she is ready, she will let you know. :)
For instance, there's no universally best way to make, maintain or use a starter. So in the case of whether to put yours right into the dough or make a levain, it's up to you, how you want to bake and how well or poorly each approach fits your preferences. It's also not either/or; you can use both.
To expand on the suggestion that you start your SD journey with 1-2-3, I suggest sticking to that or another straightforward recipe, preferably a basic AP and/or BF loaf, until you can consistently produce a satisfactory loaf, which shouldn't take long. This will give you a base from which you can learn what happens when you use different flours and/or blends, different hydrations, different proportions of starter or levain, etc.
for your kind answers, suggestions, pointers, and the words of encouragement. I am waiting the scales I ordered from Amazon to arrive, and once they do, I'll try making SD bread again.
So, my scale finally arrived, and I got a banneton for proofing as well. I've been experimenting a bit, and I think I finally got it. Since all the folks here were so helpful, I figured I could contribute by sharing my results. Would really love to hear your comments too! First, here's the final product:
The recipe:
In the morning. take starter from the fridge and feed it 1:1:1, i.e. equal amounts of starter, water, and flour. Cover and let sit in a warm place for 6-8 hrs.
Ingredients:
Starter (100% hydration) - 150g
Water - 280g + 20g for salt = 300g total
Flour - 400g KA BF + 50g KA WW
Salt - 10g
Baker's math:
Flour - 100%
Water - 71.5%
Salt - 1.9%
Mix everything (except salt and some water) until all flour is absorbed. Cover and let stand for 30 min, then add salt and remaining water, and mix for 3-4 min. I use stand mixer, but you can use anything you like.
Place the dough in a lightly oiled bowl, cover, let rest for 30 min. Take it out on a lightly-floured surface and stretch and fold from 4 sides, then put it back in the bowl. Repeat rest and stretch and fold 3 times (4 times total, cover during rest). BF for 2 hrs. On lightly-floured surface pre-shape, let rest 10-15 min, then final shape.
Flour the banneton, and the surface of the dough (lightly), place the dough into the banneton and cold proof overnight (10-12 hrs). Next morning, take the dough out of the fridge and let warm up on the counter for 1.5-2 hrs. Meanwhile, preheat oven to 500F, then drop the temp to 475F. I baked at first under a "dome". I have this old cast-aluminum pot, which I preheat in the oven and then invert and cover the dough with it to create hot and steamy environment, similar to a Dutch oven or Cloche. It looks like this:
I am baking right on a cookie sheet, lightly covered with corn meal to prevent dough sticking. Take the dough out of the banneton, dust off any excess flour (I found that I really don't like the taste of the roasted rice flour, which I use in my banneton :-) ), and score the bread. I scored at a shallow angle, trying to create an "ear". I think I succeeded.
Bake under the dome for 20 min at 475F, then drop temp to 460F and bake uncovered for 20 min more, rotating once in the middle. I waited for about 2 hrs before slicing the loaf, and I must admit that was torture! :-) The crumb looks fine, although I would prefer it a bit more airy. The taste was wonderful, and the crust was the crunchiest I ever achieved!
Hope this helps someone too!
I just did a happy dance for you that it turned out so incredibly well! You should be very, very proud of this one - and of yourself for patiently working through the newbie issues and developing your skill to this level.
You "think" that you succeeded in scoring for an ear ---- pfffffttttt. You KNOW that you did!
Well done - and please either blog or start a new post for your next adventure so that more people see it and can comment.
Cheers and keep on baking happy!
Thanks IceDemeter, I am definitely very happy with the results. I know I could not have done it without support from this entire community! I will do a separate post, and will share this loaf and two others I baked since.
That is some seriously good looking bread! Much to be proud of! Well done! Now just grab the salted butter!
Bake happy Coop!
I appreciate it!