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Need Help with Horst Bandel's Black Pumpernickel from Bread

Adrian.Walton's picture
Adrian.Walton

Need Help with Horst Bandel's Black Pumpernickel from Bread

Hi fellow bread bakers.

I've now had three failed attempts at making Horst Bandel's Black Pumpernickel from Jeffrey Hamelman's Bread. Each time the bread has broken apart after the baking and 24 hour rest period.

The first time I followed the recipe as written. The second time I cut back the water by about 50%.  The third time I cut back the water and replaced the rye meal with rye flour.  

During my latest attempt I slowly lowered the oven temperature as instructed but instead of completely turning off the oven I left it at 200 degF.  After 16 hours the bread had sunk a bit and become cracked.  Testing between the cracks the bread was completely wet and raw.  I decided to increase the temperature to 250 degF and remove the pullman lid.  In the end I left the bread in for an additional 4 hours in an attempt to firm up center. 

Once cooled and rested the loaf quickly broke in several large chunks.  A slice revealed the center crumb to be still be quite wet but the outer edges/crust were very tough.  Most attempts to cut the loaf resulted in the outer 1/2 inch of tough bread pulling away from the center.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!  Here are my thoughts on possible causes: 1) I over cooked the rye kernels resulting in them absorbing too much water and thus adding too much water to the loaf;  2) I over proofed the loaf -note the open crumb in the photo; and 3) the oven temperature was too low.

Again, any insights you can provide would be appreciated.  I really want to make this recipe turn out but I'm getting disappointed and frustrated!

Adrian

 

pmccool's picture
pmccool

The sunken top suggests that the loaf had been over proofed before baking. 

A gummy interior at the end of a bake for an all-rye loaf doesn't necessarily indicate it isn't fully cooked; hence the advice to let a loaf stand for 24 hours or longer before cutting.  It takes time for the moisture to be evenly distributed throughout the loaf, as well as for the starch matrix to firm up.  Did you check the internal temperature at any point?

I've not encountered a problem with this bread breaking into pieces previously.  That it happened in all three iterations is really a head-scratcher.  I hope someone with more experience with this bread chimes in.  It's far too good for you to miss out on the pleasure of a successful bake. 

Paul

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

rye is needed.  Which attempt is pictured?

Rye crumb doesn't set up until completely cool and allowed to set, that usually means at least 24 hours for this type of bread, two days even better.  Moisture needs to move from the inside of the loaf to the crumb.  I wrap or enclose 100% rye loaves tightly after it is cold and wait.  I often have to hide the loaf.  Lol!

On possible causes to the problems if the loaves we are to trouble shoot were made with 50% of the water, the recipe has been altered too much to compare to the original recipe.  So many things have been changed with that step.  That would include timings, fermentation, baking method and crumb.

Answers:   1) I over cooked the rye kernels resulting in them absorbing too much water and thus adding too much water to the loaf;      - Most likely not, think of this loaf as rice cooker or ryes cooker.  :)  The whole grains look good but the crumb looks more like it dried out during the bake encapsulating the area with any moisture.

 2) I over proofed the loaf -note the open crumb in the photo;     - Doesn't look over proofed to me.  There is a big dent in the top but I'm guessing that is because the dough was level in the pan before baking and as the moisture baked out it created a hollow which collapsed. 

and 3) the oven temperature was too low.   - doubt it   

I would like to know more about the first loaf.  Got any crumb pictures of it?

The good news is that you can recycle all the crumbs back into rye loaves (along with some fresh flour) so crumble them up and freeze them for ready use.  You can also feed your rye starter the crumbs with or without fresh flour.  Toss a handful into any recipe water for a good soaking and added flavour.  

Adrian.Walton's picture
Adrian.Walton

Thanks for your help and advice.

I have let the loaf rest for up to 48 hours after baking and removal from the pan.  Each time I wrapped it in a cloth for that entire time.  Should it be wrapped in something air tight after it has fully cooled?

Mini Oven:  You might be right about the crumb drying out and trapping in the moisture.  The crumb is sooo hard and dry, while the interior is still very moist -even after resting multiple days.

Is the pullman lid supposed to be sealed tight.  One recipe I saw suggested to seal the whole thing (pan and lid) with foil while in the oven to prevent moisture loss.  

Unfortunately I don't have any photos of my first (or second) attempt.  They are currently in my freezer awaiting to be added to my next attempts to make this bread.

I did take the internal temperature when I decided to stop baking the loaf and, if I remember correctly, it was around 200 degF.   Does this seem high enough?

Thanks again for your advice.  I think another try at this recipe (without the alterations) is needed so that I can show the results -good or bad.

Adrian

IceDemeter's picture
IceDemeter

I haven't tried this recipe yet, but seem to recall that numerous posters on this site have done a variety of tests of pumpernickel / falling oven rye bakes over the years.  I think that the general consensus at one point was that the pullman pan wasn't sealed enough and that there needed to be continuous steam available for it to bake properly without the outside drying out first.

The "solution" that I took note of (for when I try it) was to use a pullman, seal it in foil, and have it sitting on a rack inside of a roasting pan with lid and having enough water in the bottom to provide continuous low-level steam throughout the bake.  The internal temp of the loaf when it is done I believe should be around 208-210 F (depending on the elevation of your location), and it needs to sit wrapped for at least 24 and preferably 48-72 hours before slicing...

If you do a search on the site for "Westphalian" or "Pumpernickel" then you should find numerous posts discussing various bakes.

Adrian.Walton's picture
Adrian.Walton

Thanks for your insights, IceDemeter.  I will try sealing it with foil.  I don't, unfortunately, have a roasting large enough for my pullman.  I did some searches on TFL using those search words you suggested and found some more helpful information.  Thanks for this.

Regards,

Adrian