The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Controlling the sour in sourdough

pmiker's picture
pmiker

Controlling the sour in sourdough

When I make sourdough I typically use a formula from Bread by J. Hamelman.  Ones that I have made include Vermont Sourdough (rye and wheat), Whole Wheat Levain, 40% Caraway Rye, Sourdough Rye with Raisins and Walnuts and others.  I've also made the Sweet Potato Levain from Sourdough by Sara Owens.  In addition, I have converted some of my yeast bread formulas to sourdough.

I mention this not to boast but to show that I have been trying to resolve the issue on my own.  My latest attempt was to make the dough for two loaves of Whole Wheat Levain which is 50% whole wheat (fresh milled).  Once the dough was shaped and placed into bannetons, one went into the fridge overnight and the other was baked after it had risen.  Both loaves look alike and taste alike.  I expected the later one to have at least a bit of a tang.

I have two starters at 100% hydration.  One is given KAF AP flour and the other is fed fresh milled whole rye.  Both rise the bread they are used in but neither is sour. They are each a few years old.

Usually, I do not want a sour flavor so all is well.  But sometimes I am asked for 'sour' sourdough and I'm at a loss.  I'd really like to have control over this.

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Here is a link to get you started.  I have a friend who loves sour, and find that for me at least, it is hit or miss.   https://brodandtaylor.com/make-sourdough-more-sour/

 

 

pmiker's picture
pmiker

one thing that caught my eye was the size of the levain.  If I increase it, that should provide more acid. I'll have to go through the articles more thoroughly.

Again, thanks.

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

together to so some experiments on what makes sour bread.  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/43065/sources-sour#comment-329063

We tested the effects of whole grains, especially bran, temperature and hydration on the sour of sourdough bread from starter though levain to the bread itself.

The post pretty much explains what we were up.  I had been working on the No Muss No Fuss starter for a couple of years to which lead to the bran levain project still underway.  Doc and I had confirmed that low and high temperatures do per Ganzel's data.  We have also confirmed that Bran acts a a buffer allowing LAB to keep reproducing and producing acid at lower pH levels than normal as well but we are not sure what in the bran makes this happen.

I use a combination of NMNF Stiff rye Starter stored for a very long time up to 24 weeks, building a 3 stage liquid bran levain built at high temperature.  Retarding the bran levain for 48 hours before using, doing a proper autolyse to make sure the food is abundant, doing gluten development at high temps and then retarding the dougn for as long as possible with a high temp final proof.  Some combination of these thiongs can make a bread a sour as you want or doing the opposite will make it just as less sour.

Remember that increasing LAB to yeast ratios comes two ways - promoting LAB and restricting yeast

Happy sour baking 

Trevor J Wilson's picture
Trevor J Wilson

Not every starter is capable of producing noticeably sour bread. I've worked with many many starters over the years -- I've made many of them myself, and also worked with the different starters at various bakeries I've been employed at. Some starters, no matter how you maintain or use them, simply will not create a sour bread. In fact, I'd say that a fair number of the starters I've worked with fall into that category. 

Depending upon where your culture lies on the flavor/sour spectrum, it's possible that this might be the case for you. If your starters lie at one far end of the spectrum -- extremely mild -- then they may never produce the sour you're looking for. You should certainly experiment a bit more -- definitely try some of the excellent ideas already suggested -- but if nothing seems to work then it may not be you, it may just be your starters.

Cheers!

Trevor

 

pmiker's picture
pmiker

Neither my wife or I want sour bread. But some of my acquaintances do. I've thought about creating a new culture from scratch to see if I would get a sour one.

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

I tell folks that if you don't like the taste your starter makes then make another one with different flour made from different flour grown in a different place until you do find one you like. Thankfully, they are really easy and cheap enoiugh to make once you get the hang of making them.

pmiker's picture
pmiker

are a white KAF AP flour one and a home milled whole rye flour one. Both are 100% hydration but the rye one is stiffer.

Jim Burgin's picture
Jim Burgin

Trevor,

New to sourdough.  Don't like the strong sour, acid taste.  Is there a way to get the taste/flavor without bowling me over?  thanks much.  Jim

pmccool's picture
pmccool

If you do some digging here, you'll find more about how to increase the sour than about how to reduce it.  

The simplest, in my view, is to spike the dough with some IDY or ADY.  That will shorten the fermentation time, thereby reducing the amount of acid produced.   You'll want to do some experimenting with time, temperature, and amount of yeast, since your starter has its own traits for flavor and fermentation.  As a starting point, you might want to preferment 20% of the recipe's flour in a levain (bigger levain = faster final dough ferment = milder flavor, usually) and add 1/4 the yeast you might use for a non-sourdough bread.  After tasting the results, you can decide what you want to change for the next bake. 

Paul

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

The longer a SD dough ferments, the higher the percentage of LAB (sour)

Consider these two things

  1. Use your levin when it is young. For example - if your levain normally matures in 8hr, use it at 6-6.5hr
  2. Use a high percentage of Prefermented Flour. You might initially try 25-30%. This will cause your dough is mature faster, which is exactly what you want.

Note
As Paul suggested Commercial Yeast will also get you there, if that is the route you wish to go.

Benito's picture
Benito

I’ve actually found the easiest most consistent way to ensure your sourdough isn’t too sour Jim.  For my enriched breads that I’ve been posting a lot about, I use a stiff sweet levian.  The idea is that if there is enough sugar in the levain, the osmotic pressure exerted on the microbes will dehydrate them.  This affects the LAB more than it does the yeast.  As a result at peak, the levain will not have much of a pH drop because the LAB population has been slowed by the sugar.  The resulting breads I’ve made with these stiff sweet levains also lack much of the sour tang that most sourdough would have with similar fermentation times so the LAB population is less than usual.

I’ve used this type of levain for my 100% spelt sourdough bread.  You can read about the 100% whole spelt loaf here where I’ve also explained a bit about the effects of the stiff sweet starter.

Benny

pmiker's picture
pmiker

I will try an experiment with Vermont Sourdough by Hamelman.  One batch by the book (white starter, long overnight levain build with bread flour).  Another batch using whole rye (culture and flour) for the levain and allowing it to build at a higher temperature for less time.  If I understand what I've read, this will promote the LAB and give the one using a rye levain a stronger flavor.  I'll have to work out the time and temp for the rye levain build.

I notice that Hamelman uses 15% of his flour for the levain build.  Rye accounts for just 10% of the total flour.  If I keep the flour quantities the same I'd have a smaller levain with the rye levain. Should I use some of the bread flour with the rye to keep the two levains the same size?

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Try putting all of the rye and some of the bread flour and all of the liquid into the levain then run it warm and long.  You have at least 6 hrs after it peaks during which it continues to produce acid and will still provide plenty of yeast action (though as TBM points out, you may want to suppress the yeast in order to let the residual LAB generate more lactic acid)

This will make for a larger levain because it contains 3.2 oz of rye flour + 1.6 oz of bread flour  + 6 oz of water that was planned for the levain + 14.8 oz of water that was planned for the final dough.  But the additional liquid dilutes the acid and allows the LAB to produce more of it while something in the whole grain flour serves to buffer the pH enough to allow an additional doubling (or so) of LAB population before it stops reproducing, but which will approximately double the rate of lactic acid production during the period after the levain pH drops below 3.8.

For an additional independent source of lactic acid, you can add 20g of fructose to the final dough.  But be sure you buy pure fructose or you will wind up with a mildly sweet dough.  I have good test data showing that the TTA is increased reliably (for my starter), independent of what I get without the fructose. It is possible that the metabolic pathway that produces lactate is not available in other starters but I have tried it only with a King Arthur starter and one that I started from scratch.

pmiker's picture
pmiker

says to cover the levain bowl and let it stand at 70F for 12 to 16 hours.  I normally go 16 hours.  I can use my B&T proofer on the new levain to increase the temperature.  But to what? 76F for 10 hours or perhaps 80F for six hours. I'm guessing at time and temp.  Will the additional hydration of the levain allow for longer development times?  I have used the regular levain at 10 hours when my house temp was 74F.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

86-89°F for at least 12 hrs, and 16 hrs would not be too long (I have data showing that levain total acidity continues to increase out beyond 36hrs).  Bulk ferment may take a few minutes longer but proof should be the same as in the book.  This is all about getting a higher LAB numerical density and more total acid into the finished product. As the pH drops, the LAB will slow down and eventually stop replicating (~pH3.8); in the mean time the yeast will continue to multiply and feed on every sugar they can use. When they stop, the yeast population remains static for quite a while, but the LAB still have substrates they can use to produce lactic acid even if they can't replicate.  You want to get as much of that as you can.  When you finally mix the dough, the LAB will begin to replicate again and the numerical density is larger and they all make acid for you.  The yeast sees new glucose and starts a new exponential growth cycle.  There may be a little lag while the yeast build up their replication mechanisms (which I think is why bulk fermentation takes just a little longer).

pmiker's picture
pmiker

I have an original version levain (4.8 oz bread flour, white culture, 125% hydration and 72-73F room temperature) and it's been developing about 13 1/2 hours.  It's nice and bubbly as usual.  I'll let it go a couple of more hours.  I also have the test version levain (3.2 oz whole rye, 1.6 oz bread flour, whole rye culture, 433% hydration and in a proofer set at 86F) and it's been developing bout 10 hours so far.  I've never worked with a levain this wet. The plastic bowl cover has condensation so I cannot really see how it's doing.  (I took a flashlight to see if I could see it better.  It's sudsy/bubbly.)

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

125% is considered very wet.  I don't know what 433% would be called ...... maybe cloudy water:-)  Was that a typo and you really meant 133%? I would think 10 hours at that temperature the poor we beasties would be starving horribly.  84 F is the best temperature for yeast reproduction not LAB .  90 F restricts yeast like it was at 66 F while promoting LAB reproduction making for a 3.2 to 1 LAB to yeast reproduction ratio.  At 86 F the ration is only 1.7 to 1 since the yeast are not as restricted and are reproducing at the same rate as they are at 74F and the LAB are reproducing at a rate 5% less than they do a 90 F

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Putting all of the liquid into the levain proved to increase TTA. My theory is that it may be acid concentration more than pH that affects LAB acid production and since these are weak acids, dilution lowers the concentration of lactic acid while the lactate concentration remains about the same. Gänzle examined the effects of both lactate and acetate and showed that both yeast and LAB are quite sensitive to their concentrations (with a higher sensitivity to acetate than lactate).

pmiker's picture
pmiker

but this is an experiment.  I've mixed the dough and it is on it's bulk rise.  I'll see how it goes. So far it looks ok.

 

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

I found that it wants to settle out with foam on top, then liquid, then solids on the bottom. It may be important that there is diffusion across that boundary between liquid and suspended solids.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Doc, I came upon this topic while attempting to learn about the addition of fructose to enhance the sour.

I am very interested in your method for concentrating lactic acids. You say to use all of the rye, some of the four and all of the water (ttl water) in the levain. I think someone calculated the levain hydration @ 433%. Ferment warm and long. As long as 16hr and you claim your testing shows increased lactic acids out to 36 hr.

My only concern with this is degraded flour being brought into the dough. Is it possible to siphon of the acids (liquid) from the levain slurry and use this liquid in the final mix to bring in only liquids and lactic acid. The missing flour could be replaced in the final mix.

If the yeast are lost or greatly reduced could a new inoculation of starter be added? Would the liquid contain the yeast?

Is this feasible and would it eliminate spent (degraded) flour in the final mix.

You know me, “thinking out loud”. Some of my questions might be ridiculous, but I won’t know until someone tells me so :D

Danny

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

I had not considered using the liquid as a reservoir of acidity and discarding the rest of the levain. But I see no reason why it should not work. But if you are going to do that, you might also boil some wheat bran and use the water as the liquid in your levain.  There is something in the liquid that seems to act as a buffer and induce additional TTA in bread made that way. A few of us think it might be from the phytate in the bran, but there are no definitive data to support or refute that hypothesis.  Add the 2% fructose to the dough, and perhaps start with some No Muss No Fuss starter that DBM advocates (which is designed to have relatively high LAB and lower initial yeast numerical densities than you might otherwise get from whatever you are normally using).

And take good notes so we all can learn from your experience.

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

“There is something in the liquid (boiled wheat bran) that seems to act as a buffer and induce additional TTA in bread made that way.”

Water infused with bran sounds interesting. Would the infused water be better for the LAB using whole rye (100% extraction) as opposed to wheat bran and flour? I ask because the solids will be discarded before mixing the final dough. It seems that if the liquids are siphoned off that the food (whole rye, flour and wheat bran, or anything else) only serves to feed, energize and multiply the lactic acid. Is this is correct how would you feed with that goal in mind? I also plan to use your super high hydration idea for the CLA ferment.

NOTE: this isn’t necessarily used for the formula in this topic. I am on a Concentrated Lactic Acid kick. Roger Lambert and Rus Brot have piqued my interest. The issue I see with DBM’s NMNF method is the acetic acid. My goal is to ferment a concentration of primarily lactic acid, even if there is no yeast in the ferment. I am hoping to use the CLA (concentrated Lactic acid) liquid to mix the final dough. If I have to add some very active (yeast maximized) levain to the final mix for rise, that will be fine.

What are the pros and cons in your opinion? Thanks Doc!

Danny

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

I only have data on water extracts of wheat bran.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

levain for a long time to get another doubling of the LAB and more resulting acid production to make the bread ,more sour,  it makes sense to get some fructose in there mix too.  Flour has about 1-2 % fructose in it but, when it is depleted, the LAB stop making acid and begins to make CO2 and Ethanol, just like yeast do, instead.  Fructose leads to more acid production because it supplies another electron receptor that the LAB can use to produce even more acid - faster. 

pmiker's picture
pmiker

you would recommend?  I doubt that I can procure it locally.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

I see that today it is about $4/lb on Amazon plus shipping, which makes it expensive, but you don't use much so it will last. Some markets also carry it in either the health food section or in canning supplies at a lower price (I think the last time I found it there it was around $2 but I don't remember how big the package was).

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

3 years ago.  I should last me about 20 years.  You don't want high fructose corn syrup just fructose.  You only use 1-2 g per 100 g of flour in the levain.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

And the best result was to put it into the dough.

BakerLisa's picture
BakerLisa

I cheat when baking sour dough breads.  I use 1/8 teaspoon of sour salt or citric acid per one cup of flour.  Works every time.  

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

I have seen commercial mixes that have added both malic acid and acetic acid directly to the flour. (there are other chemical pathways to get there but that is what the bag said). Citric and malic acids are used extensively in the food industry as acidulants and pH modifiers and are almost interchangeable (malic drops the pH a little further than citric) and both are relatively high molecular weight so low volatility and thus you can't smell them.  Acetic on the other hand is of a lower molecular weight and thus more volatile and is most of what you smell as sour in the aroma of sourdough bread.  So next time, try adding 1% vinegar (relative to flour) to a batch of dough in addition to the 1/8t per cup of citric acid and see if you can tell the difference.

pmiker's picture
pmiker

This is a by the book Vermont Sourdough.  My experimental loaves are still in bulk rise.  But this is what I will compare them to.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Comparing this loaf with the photos at the top of this string, you have terrific consistency!

pmiker's picture
pmiker

Thank you.  When shaping the loaves of the second batch, my wife commented on the sour smell. Similar to vinegar.  

Vermont Sourdough

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

I will be makinbg 433% levain with fructose very soon.

pmiker's picture
pmiker

The one in front is my attempt to achieve sour. No fructose, one ounce of my whole rye culture and 433% hydration. Just 3.2 oz rye flour and 1.6 bread flour in the levain. Great rise. I went lighter on the slashes and it ripped.  But some like a ripped look.

pmiker's picture
pmiker

My wife was about ten feet away from the bread and asked if that was the bread making crackling noises.  I just slashed a square into the top of the last.  Not enough.

Taste test tomorrow.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

from a long, warm levain fermentation. Did you detect any increase in the required bulk fermentation time?

Both loaves look great with good oven spring and coloration.  It is nice when you can do the direct batch to batch comparison and confidently say "all things were equal" rather than comparing one day's result with the next day's.

pmiker's picture
pmiker

But by then my kitchen was warmer and because of the warm liquid levain, the dough was warmer.

BTW, I bake these loaves one at a time.  Once on the stone, I cover the loaf with a large stainless steel bowl for twenty minutes.  Then I continue baking until done.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

gas or electric? Convection or not? Additional steam or just what is trapped by the bowl?

pmiker's picture
pmiker

My oven is a conventional electric Frigidaire.  I do not add steam. The bowl traps a good amount.  I once accidentally flipped it over under my face after removing it from the oven. Yep, it holds steam!  I used to use wet towels in pans. This is easier.

The results?  Just a hint, ever so slight of sour in the second batch.  It did have some bigger holes but the flavor is about the same.  Oh well, the experiment was interesting.

phaz's picture
phaz

Funny you mention that. I posted once that I use a bowl too, and to keep clear when you remove it or you'll cook your face. Doesn't it work great to keep steam. At first I was lightly misting the loaf and bowl with water for extra steam. That was way too much. It may not be perfect  , but it sure works good.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

In the following order:

0. wait until tomorrow and see if today's loaf seems to be more sour

1. add 20g of fructose to the dough

2. increase the whole grain flour to 15%

3. try a different starter (order from on-line KA or get some from somebody local who makes sourdough bread)

pmiker's picture
pmiker

0. ok

1. I'll have to order some unless Walmart sells it.

2. More whole grain rye, or perhaps whole grain white or whole grain hard red wheat?  I have grains I can mill.

3.No one locally makes bread other than I.  If they do, they're keeping it secret.  I appear to be the only source of bread outside of Walmart and Brookshire's in this area.   I've read that all cultures become local after awhile.  I may mail order something.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

waves.  Base mild sour is lactic and LAB have no problem making that.  The 'Tang' in SD is the acetic acid that LAB don't normally make - they have to be coaxed into doing so,  A good SD bread in my book has to have a balance of both and be sour.. Is there any tng in eh bread?  When I want sour and tang, I use long retarded NMNF whole grain rye starter at least 16 weeks, a bran and high extraction, whole grain, warm built levain that is retarded for 2 days, a 1 hour autolyse for the dough flour,  and then a warm gluten development for the dough and a long cold retard for it.  That woks very well and no one ever asks if it is a sourdough bread - they know it is:-) 

Note - 20 g of fructose would be enough for1000 g of total flour in the mix

Happy baking

pmiker's picture
pmiker

It has a sharpness almost like a sting, to the tongue but no sourness.  It's hard to describe.  Similar to lemon.  But not unpleasant. I pretty much lack a sense of smell so I may be missing some of the flavors.  My wife won't taste it for me.

I suppose I could have gone more than 16 hours on the levain build and put the shaped loaves into the fridge for an overnight retard.  I'm not sure if there is enough time in a weekend for that.

As for the bread, any sourness is no stronger than the other flavors.  The taste of the bread is great. But does the aftertaste come from the sourdough or from the caramelization of the crust?  It's so fleeting that I can't say.  Maybe by the time I eat it all I'll know.  ; )

As is, my breads are well received.  I just get the occasional request for a sourdough with a stronger flavor.  

I appreciate the help and feedback you folks have given.

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

but that is usualy made and promoted with low hyration and low temperature.  High hydration and high temperature usually promotes lactic acid to be produced by the LAB.  Nevder had a tang like lemion but like vinegar yes since vinegar is acetic acid.  Lemon is citric acid and it tastes quite different that lactic or acetic.

pmiker's picture
pmiker

I can't really call it a flavor, more of a feeling.  No vinegar,  Let me see if I can talk my wife into tasting it.

OK, she made an ugly face when she tasted it.  She said tangy like orange peel.

I keep the culture in the fridge.  Friday I took it out prior to going to work, came home at noon and fed it, then let it stay out till I used it Friday evening.  I had also fed it during the week a couple of times.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

nice gslss oif wine!  Tell her I too taste all fo my starters before I use them.  KIt is really amazing how diferent they taste from week to week - Mini Oven got me hooked on doing it - though she was just rying to get me to o somthing weirsd she could make fun of me - forever adn ever:-)  But no she tastes hers too!  OR Maybe not and she really is laguhting out Loud in Laos right now,........I still don't get the cireic acid though.....

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

I am intrigued by the use of an inverted bowl to trap steam.  I wonder if that is enough to work in a gas oven. A big stainless bowl is a whole lot less expensive than a correspondingly large cast iron Dutch oven. And the preheat time should be less too.  Does anybody have a success to report for that approach?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

in my mini oven and it works great.  I usually use DO ir a heavy aluminum pot for the big oven.  I always thought that you need some weight to keep the steam in.  Steam has lots of power and can lift a light weight SS mixing bowl pretty easily but it seems to work fine in the big oven too when I put a brick on top to hold it down:-)

pmiker's picture
pmiker

I put the loaf onto the stone and cover it with the bowl.  It's a large one I bought at Walmart.  It's how I do my sourdough.  You can see more photos if you look for Mike's Home Bakery on FB. 

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

my alternative is a terra cotta flower pot with an alu foil scrunched up bung. it needs seasoning but it costs only a few dollars and it gives great oven spring. I use it with unglazed quarry tile or pizza stone. I do preheat it too.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Convection or not?

pmiker's picture
pmiker

not convection.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Acetic acid is vinegar. If your bread tastes vinegary, that's acetic acid. The vinegar you buy in the supermarket is 5% acetic acid and 95% water.

Lactic acid has a mellower flavor, kind of creamy. It is the flavor most associated with old-school San Francisco sourdough.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

As in yoghurt

doughooker's picture
doughooker

I've had very little sourdough in recent years that has the familiar lactic-acid tang unless I make it myself. There are a lot of pretenders, some having a very distinct vinegary taste.

pmiker's picture
pmiker

that are reliable, active and produce nice bread.  I think I will just leave well enough alone.