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Help with Hamelman

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

Help with Hamelman

I recently made Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough. Flavor was great. I got wide open/and irregular holes top to bottom. However, where there weren't biggish holes, it was quite dense. The rise was terrible, maybe 2.5 inches.

I'm struggling with Hamelman's rising times. They are so much shorter than Forkish or Robertson.  Those guys ferment for much longer. Hamelman's times are almost like he was using commercial yeast.

As far as I can tell, the differences are as follows:

(F/R:H)
Short Mix: Improved Mix?
73%+ Hydration: Less than 70% Hydration (at least with this dough)
Young Levain: Not super clear. He says to let it work for 12-16 hours for this recipe. That seems like the same ballpark to me as the other guys.

Is this enough to create the massive differences in fermentation times? Or am I just getting something wrong and creating the problem for myself. It seemed to me the dough was not puffing up in the way I would have expected in his given timeframe. However, the dough was getting quite sour (I tasted it), so I went ahead and baked. Therefore, I was thinking my starter's yeast population may be the problem.  It's 100% hydration/100% rye starter. When fed 1:2:2 it doubles in 7 hours and triples between 12-14 hours (I don't know i had to go to bed). Triple is as high as it goes then falls.

Small confession, I usually add about 25% more salt than the recipe calls for. I know this will also slow down fermentation but I haven't noticed that dramatic a difference in Forkish/Robertson recipes.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

happy with such low feeds except under cool conditions.  Try a !:5:5 feeding or more.  I should ask the temperature first to be on the safe side.  

But... wait .... 25% more salt?   Please don't do that to my grey matter.  What do you mean, you raise the salt to 2.5%?   Anything between 1% and 3% is in the "normal range" and dependant on how the bread is served and with what kind of toppings.  Don't think that would be the problem.  Give the starter a few days of larger feedings feeding at peak might make a bigger difference.  Pop up the yeast population against the more sour tasting bacterial one.  

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

In my search for this answer, I've spent lots of time reading your comments on other posts. Very glad to have your expertise on this one.

I'm a little confused. I've heard some say the yeast population is most active at its peak. Trevor recently told me he waits to refrigerate his levain until after the peak because the yeast is still multiplying? I vaguely remember reading that it continues to rise as long as there's oxygen. After the oxygen is used up it becomes anaerobic?  Is it multiply in this anaerobic state? I suppose this is referring to oxygen in the water/flour mixture as there is ample oxygen in the environment.  (If there were a textbook about yeast behavior (related to bread not beer) I would totally buy it. Just haven't found one.)

With respect to salt I usually opt for around 3%.  I've read many bakers say for hearth breads, 2.3% is the limit.

Room temp about 70 degrees. Although I used about 80 degree water for the feed.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

You've asked me a tricky question.  Yeast population when stressed will release gas and it may not necessarily be at the peak of activity.   But generally a peak is one kind of "marker" to judge a starter culture.  (there are others)  So Trevor is right and he makes wonderful breads.  We disagree on hole sizes but do agree that Rye sourdough starters tend to work better when you use them after they peak.  Stir them up and they will peak again.  (wheat will too)  That will tell you that the gas releasing activity (when charted on a graph) is plateaued but will steadily decrease with time as stress factors continue or increase.  Once the yeast numbers are up, chilling slows them down and they sort of wait for you to do something with them.  

The oxygen Q is for someone else to answer.  Karen Wink?  Check out her posted articles on yeast here at TFL.

Yeast under stress does the most interesting stuff.  Stress can include too much bacterial byproducts, or too little (that includes too much food and decline in food)  temp drop or rise from ideal growth conditions,  inclusion of foreign material and lack of water....  Yeast is very well studied so try the word "study" before your web searches.

There is a lot of discussion on the other thread you posted, just read over it myself.

But what I think the bread discussion comes down to is ....  there needs to be a greater yeast population in the starter you are using for what you are looking for in the crumb.   Give a small portion some regular big feeds and see what it does.  Also reduce the hydration in you bread dough a little bit to give you a larger work window if you get distracted often.  Make use of timers.  I just recently made myself bracelets to wear when I have dough bulking/proofing so that when I have something rising, I don't forget.  That only works when I can see the bracelet.  Siri and timers are better.  :)

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

Yup. These topics converged in the two threads. The quest for answers is like that sometimes. 

To be clear though, in this case I did build the levain after several refreshments. The final build was wheat not rye. So, that's why I posted under a different thread. I need to get the basics right before changing things up. I've baked lots of bread over the past several months and I've never managed to get the rise I'm seeing in pictures when using purely wild yeast. It's becoming a point of great frustration. But thanks to the helpful community here, I've got some new things to try.

Thanks. 

 

Trevor J Wilson's picture
Trevor J Wilson

If I recall correctly, Hamelman uses a larger amount of starter/levain/pre-fermented flour in his breads than do many others. When coupled with a very active starter that will give you a quicker rise. When I've made Hamelman breads in the past, his suggested proof times have always been spot on for me (so long as my temps were correct).

Extra salt will slow the rise a bit, so that's one thing. But the loaf you are describing just sounds like it wasn't rising fast enough -- maybe due to starter health/activity or cool temps. The best thing to do when following other's recipes is to just follow the old maxim, "watch the dough, not the clock". All suggested proof times are just that . . . suggestions. It's up to each baker to adjust as necessary. 

The crumb you are describing sounds like a loaf that was underproofed, especially during the bulk stage (although pictures would be helpful and lead to more accurate diagnosis). If you followed Hamelman's proof times, but missed his temps or had a less active starter then that will naturally lead to underproofing. That's how it goes sometimes. Just keep adjusting things until you get it right. Better luck next time!

Trevor

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

Yes. That could be it. I was worried in the moment that the bulk ferment wasn't long enough. It was already so sour. Maybe tasting raw dough isn't an accurate gauge. 

I thought my temps were right on the money. Both dough temp after mix and ambient. Sounds like I just need to try again.  Bread...she's a mysterious creature. Both forgiving and fickle.

Many thanks!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

The starter is out of balance and tipped in favour of the bacteria.  Yeast growth will be minimal but there are ways to correct it.  

One way is to work on getting a larger more concentrated population of yeast into the culture.  This has been explained already.

Another is to use steps to increase the levain size (using the recipe flour and liquids increasing the size as it peaks) to arrive at the final dough weight.  A short final proof is all that is needed before baking.  (Making a dough with a small amount of sourdough starter, basically a "one-step," increases the sourness of the dough as the bacteria have to work overtime to optimise a lot of dough to optimise yeast growth.   Consideration of the age of pre-fermented flour comes into play.  

Another way to encourage yeast in the dough is to use a flour with a high ash count.  This will buffer the signals to the yeast to slow down and thus encourage yeast growth.  (I'm going to get called out on this one.)  Flours with higher ash content include more whole flours, more outer parts of the grain berry, and usually contain higher protein counts than highly sifted flours.

Pre-gelatanised starch in the dough will also encourage yeast over bacteria.  That includes cooked and cooled cereals, bread or altus and water roux or tangzhong.  

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

I'm going to try a couple of things.  I want to make Hamelman's as instructed because I think that will help me diagnose my issues. So, I will wait to swap out flours, but that's really good to know about ash content. I prefer more whole wheat and hearty bread anyway.

I've been feeding the rye starter more, and as you all suggested, it has been growing more and it has been doing so more quickly. I think my cheapskate nature (not wanting to feed flour and throw it away) has been holding me back on this one. So, that's why I'm very grateful to have the other suggestions on less waste. But I'm gonna get this right first...if it kills me.

The other thing I've done is study up more on shaping. I don't know if I was taking shaping seriously enough. So, I've spent some time watching Trevor's videos and the instructional videos on the King Arthur website. Seeing the man himself at his craft (Hamelman) is injecting some courage to keep trying.

I think it's probably a good idea to convert my starter to a stiff starter. Consensus seems to be that it's more flexible and lasts longer.  (Since I started with Tartine I've just been keeping a liquid starter as a legacy thing, not really for any other reason.)  I can start that process now.  Should I do so gradually or will my starter be able to handle a sudden change? I plan to keep it rye, just because...well, I don't know.  I feel like rye has got the goodies that make the yeast happy. When I was building the starter in the beginning, it didn't really take off until I started feeding it rye.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

takes time.  There will be an initial lag time so watch the starter not the clock or calendar.   Take a mature starter and add enough rye flour to make it stiff. Smooth over seams and cracks and roll into flour so you can see when it does crack from expansion and slumps out of shape.  It will smell ripe when ready and be nice and gooey inside with lots of bubble structure.  You can always make it thinner at any time but a firm starter has to first work thru a bit of flour first before using it.

 

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

Tastes great. Interior crumb is lovely.  Glossy holes. Irregular throughout.

But...it looks awful.  I made batards...one is a lumpy kidney bean.  It spread out, not up.

Perhaps this was a heat management problem. I got caught up with baby and had to give husband instructions on removing the steam pan.  Too early.  Oven door open too long...maybe.  Crummy oven to begin with.

Going to try again tomorrow. I'll stick with boules and cast iron, I guess.

And bulk ferment ended a lot more pillowy.  Still, not what I would expect from commercial yeast, and due to schedule, it fermented an extra hour. But miles from the last attempt.

debbahs's picture
debbahs

however this is how I prefer to look at it. I calculated that for me to make 2 beautiful large 1.5-lb loaves of whatever bread from Hamelman's book costs me $0.86 (I use KA flour almost exclusively). For TWO loaves. That usually last 3-4 days in our house. I compare that to the cost of $5-6 in my area for ONE loaf of artisan bread. That is usually stale within 1-2 days. So ... in the grand scheme of things, a little extra flour to feed your starter well is minimal. 

Also, once I got my rye starter established (I also have been keeping a regular white starter for years), I've moved it more to maintenance mode - dialing down the total amount I need to keep (I'm at about 2.5 ounces each culture/flour/water and may even take it down to 2 ounces, since Hamelman's formulas only use about 2 TBS of mature culture), and feed maybe 2x/week (I keep it in the fridge) if I'm not planning on using it that week, with 1 extra feeding the night before I plan to use it.

HTH!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

instead.  The higher ash content, found n the bran of whole grains, is where all the essential minerals and vitamins reside.  Yeast perform at their best when all of their essential needs are met.  I don't know about the buffering effect for yeast and bran but there sure is one for LAB and bran so yeast having one doesn't surprise me - but it is not the same kind if buffering.  Getting a higher yeast count is real enough but getting a higher Yeast to LAB ratio is questionable but you might get the opposite easily enough.

Yeast are not effected by low pH like LAB are and continue to reproduce and produce CO2 when the LAB are normally shut down by high acid levels .  So bran buffering for yeast doesn't have the same effect as bran buffering for LAB does where you can squeeze out another round of reproduction with LAB .you normally wouldn't get. You are going to get that with yeast and no buffering anyway.

The thing about SD bread is that when it is properly fermented and proofed it needs to go into the oven and that is usually based on the rise of the final proof,  How fast this happens depends on:  grains used, temperature, hydration and LAB to yeast ratio in the dough.  Slow is what makes great tasting SD bread in my book - not fast.  More yeast in the mix just means that things will happen faster for ferment and proofing and the flavor will suffer.  The lower the LAB to yeast ratio the more the taste will be effected negatively.

This is all subjective.  My taste is different than someone elses.  Most people do not like sour bread and they want things to happen fast so that the yeast have the dough proofed and ready to bake quickly so the LAB, which are lower in number to begin with do not have enough time to make acid and the bread sour.  This is what the process for white breads like this one  produce - something as close to commercial yeast as you can make.  For those of us that like a great tasting, sour bread instead, this method and process is the worst thing to use.  For me it is sourdough after all and not non sour sourdough but I am perhaps the exception.

The search for large holes has more to do with not using whole grains or making sure the bran does not cut the gluten strands if some are used,  Using a good AP flour in the 12% protein range, as opposed to bread flour, where you can develop the gluten well to hold the gas and have it perform long enough for the longer SD process yet still be easy enough for the CO2 produced to rupture some of the cell walls to make the larger holes,.  Then use a higher hydration and a temperature perfect for yeast 78-82 F along with a gentle hand and folding method that doesn't over degas the dough.  If you do have whole grains in the mix then you want to sift the, out and use them to feed the levain at the very beginning so that it is wettest the longest and the acid of the sourdough has the longest amount of time to work on it to soften the bran so it doesn't cut the gluten strands as much.  You can even retard the bran levain for 24-48 hours to let this softening process continue longer.

Happy baking with big holes and less sour taste that so many like:-)

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

This is great information, thank you.  I love a sour bread.  I usually retard my pizza dough in the fridge for three days. (I've even tried adding acetic acid to bread directly, which America's Test Kitchen recommends to improve Jim Lahey's no-knead dough.) The balance of bacteria and yeast might be the struggle here, as you mentioned.  I've had that experience where the dough was not risen enough, but became so acidic that the gluten broke down.

On the other hand, sourdough and sourness certainly change over time. Bread tastes different day to day, so it stands to reason that tasting the raw dough for sourness may be completely misleading.

I'm trying again (again). I've had Hamelman's 125% levain sitting at room temp (70F) for about 12 hours and it isn't ready at all.  Just some bubbles on the surface.

My starter is extremely active. I've been giving it larger feedings as suggested and it goes nuts pretty quickly.  I'm starting to wonder if I need to convert to a wheat starter. Maybe my particular strains aren't happy unless they get their rye? Is that possible?

Baffling.

Thanks to you and everyone for their wisdom.

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

Hi Mini Oven (or any other starter-whisperer),

So, I'm back at this. (Still trying to work with my rye starter.) I had a few questions for you. I just want to make sure I'm clear on the following

1. Optimum ripeness (let's assume that means most active microbial environment)
Both you and Trevor agree that the rye starter is most ripe after it has peaked and fallen. You mentioned stirring it and it will peak again. That makes sense to me cause like punching down, it's redistributing the food, right? I'm a little confused, however, because Hamelman mentioned rye is most ripe at its peak and as its just beginning to fall. My rye starter is currently peaking (3.5 times) sometime before I wake up in the morning. So, less than 11 hours. I can of course slow that down with cooler water, so not worried about the timing. But that should be active enough right? I stir it and it raises a bit again (not as much as the first time). Should I use it build the levain at the second peak? If not, when is ideal for building the levain?

2. Starter vs Levain
We've been discussing the above with respect to the starter, not the levain. Do I need to build the levain at the starter's optimum ripeness. Or do I just need to make sure to use the levain for the final dough mix at its optimum ripeness?

3. Build vs. Feeding/Refreshing
I think a build is because you need to build up the quantity of levain for the final dough, right?  Since I don't need a large quantity, I still tend to discard if I'm making a multiple stage levain. I'm not undermining myself by doing this am I?

4. Increasing quantity of yeast
You (and others) have recommending a larger feeding, 1:5:5 as a way of increasing the yeast ratio over bacteria. This confuses me a little because as I understand it, bacteria take longer than yeast to accumulate.  So, wouldn't this favor bacteria since the larger meal will take longer to consume? I know there was also mention of 80F being the optimum temperature for yeast. I think that would create a faster situation for the yeast and tip the yeast/bacterial balance in the yeast's favor, correct? Are there other ways to increase yeast activity that I'm missing?

If you answer all these questions, you have the patience of a saint. If you can't, that's okay, too. I know many people would tell me just to get in the kitchen and try and that not everything can be instructed. But the trouble is I have been trying in the kitchen and things still just aren't working out.

Thanks.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Start with number 1)   I feel that a rye starter is most active when it reaches the first peak and is falling.  Not completely flat fallen down but falling back from that first peak.  

Use it for a recipe or feed it for maintenance, however you want to name it.

If I am building for a levain, I tend not to discard and I save every bit.  I start out small and work up to the size i need.  If I need a large amount right away, I use a larger inoculation of mature sourdough culture to speed up the levain.  I often feed any left over culture thickening it up, letting it ferment to show signs of life before slowing down the fermentation in the refrigerator.   That often gives me the choice of using  two different rye starters in different phases for the next loaf.  

As I understand it;  Bacteria will always outnumber the yeast in a healthy sourdough culture.  A balanced culture contains the right amount of bacteria to yeast count.  This will fluctuate as the culture is fed and allowed to ferment.  There is sort of a leap frog effect going on as one population increases encouraging the other to grow.    First keep in mind the bacteria want to maintain their low pH to ward off invading bacteria and other micro organisms.  The culture is fed.  This stimulates bacterial growth.  If the pH rises enough with the feeding,  the yeast get enough stimulation to reproduce and will then do as long as enough food is available.  The yeast populating grows and as numbers build so does the stress to find food.  As yeast get stressed they produce more gas.  Yeast numbers plateau and fall off as bacteria count rises to maintain a low pH to preserve the culture until the next available food comes along.  

If that food comes at peak of yeast activity, the yeast have the chance to better their numbers against the bacterial count.  High yeast numbers raise bread dough.  

With sourdough cultures it is also important to get a latent rise in bacterial count if the subsequent acid is used to bind rye flour into dough.  So waiting for the rye to start falling back is sure sign the bacterial count is far enough along while still having a good population of yeast to raise the rye dough.

Waiting to feed a mother culture after the peak is important.  The culture  has to have enough bacteria to fight off invading organisms between and initially during feeds.  Not so important in building a wheat levain that will meet the oven heat but for maintenance feeding and keeping the on going culture healthy, very important.  That is why waiting a few hours after peaking to feed a maintenance starter does not hurt the starter.   In fact, I encourage it.  

Hope that answers all the questions.  

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

Okay, let me restate, to make sure I've got it:

Starter, wait a few hours after peak in order to insure the bacteria are present in large enough numbers to keep the starter pH low and therefore, ward off other invaders.

Levain: use just as its falling since it indicates a good balance of yeast/bacteria and will probably rise bread well.

As I just mentioned on someone else's thread, I'm starting to wonder if my problem is the rye starter itself.  I used it to make levain for Vermont Sourdough (all white) for the second time and it basically seems completely dead after 12 hours (for a second time). Meanwhile it's super alive and kicking when fed the rye.  I see examples of people successfully using different flour starters for other loaves all the time. But maybe I just have a strain that is a picky eater...(sheesh, just like my kid.) Maybe that's also why I used to be more successful at this. Perhaps the culture has evolved over time to be rye lovers. I can make great loaves when I use commercial yeast, so I do think my ongoing struggles must be a starter problem. Does that sound feasible?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I've had it happen too.  It usually goes fine when building the levain and then pow, more flour (not rye) and the yeast protest.  I'm sure it has to do with the particular yeast strains found in Rye starters and perhaps they have gotten too concentrated and focused on just rye as their source of food.  Yes, rye lovers, the little beasties.

One way to prevent it is to add a little wheat flour in with the rye during regular feeds. Another is to separate some of the rye starter and feed it more wheat, let it develop thru the stubborn baulking and then use it in wheat bread...eventually keeping two starters.   If you blend them together later, I leave that up to you.   

The first feeding may go as planned and then the second becomes so slow.  (Like it did with your bread dough.)  Just don't force it and take your cues from the starter, it does come around.  (The bread dough on the other hand, just might need a fix with kneading in additional yeast.)  Feed a mix of rye and wheat giving the starter the chance to peak.  Gradually reduce the amount of rye while increasing the wheat with each discard & feeding.  Feed it a mixture or convert to a wheat starter.  

Isn't it good to know you're not imagining things?   :)

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

After reading a second time, I changed my initial response. So, if you see the notification in email, I changed it and may confuse you...

AlanG's picture
AlanG

I use a blend of Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough and David Snyder's San Joaquin recipe for my bread.  I like Hamelman's 125% overnight levain build so that's what I use.  I pretty much follow David's recipe for mixing, folding, overnight retard in the fridge and then his method of bench rest and final proof before baking.  This gives me very reproducible results.  I use King Arthur AP flour rather than 'bread' flour and Bob's Red Mill Rye

pmiker's picture
pmiker

I also like the 125% overnight levain and I have also retarded a shaped loaf overnight.  In addition, I just used a 433% hydration overnight levain with the formula and it also worked.  I make sure my culture is active, keep an eye on the temperature and go by the book.  I do not add steam to the oven, I just cover the loaf with a stainless steel bowl. Twenty minutes covered and 15-20 minutes uncovered.  I just can't make it sour.