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Sandwich loaf - proofing problem vs shaping?

NurseRatched's picture
NurseRatched

Sandwich loaf - proofing problem vs shaping?

Hi everyone,

I made a loaf of white sandwich bread today (the recipe is from Rose Levy-Berenbaum's The Bread Bible). Overall it turned out pretty nicely, but I did notice a small area of denser crumb along the bottom/the bottom left-hand side of the loaf. 

Could this be due to overproofing, underproofing, or a shaping issue? I did have some problems shaping the loaves and it's definitely possible that I created a denser area with the seam. 

I used a baking stone and a thermometer inserted into the center came out at about 208/209 degrees for each loaf. 

Thanks for any input anyone can offer! I'd love to get it 100% next time. 

- A. 

Edit: I'm sorry that I can't get the photo to upload facing the right way up - I've tried editing it and nothing seems to be changing this!

Norcalbaker's picture
Norcalbaker

The patterns in the crumb  is what you look at to help determine the problem. 

See how there's areas of denser crumb mixed in with large irregular holes?

When there's a mix of dense uniform holes with a splattering of irregular holes randomly spread throughout the crumb thats usually a sign of over-proofing or proofing at too high a temperature.  Another sign of over-proofed dough is a slouchy dome. It's hard to tell from the photo, but the dome looks a bit low and wide at the top. But it may be the angle of the photo. But looking at the dome will help you understand your bread. 

I don't think it's under-proofed.  When dough is under-proofed there will be large holes concentrated all along the inside edge of the crust, and the center will be dense. 

so one issue based on the photo I think is over-proofing.

Since the photo doesn't show the dense area you mention, it's hard to say what the problem is. if it's a streak of gummy like dough, that's usually unincorporated flour.  Unincorporated flour is caused by too much bench flour.

i don't think you have a shaping problem. if you had physically damaged the gluten, the crumb would have a horrific holes of every size throughout the crumb.  ive been working on some gluten free yeast doughs they past few days-- trust me, when you manhandle the dough, it bakes up butt ugly with holes!

 

 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

:)   I would please like to see the bottom of the loaf including the cut in the same picture.  I suspect not enough lower heat, maybe too high in the oven.  How does the colour of the lower crust compare to the top crust?  Perhaps a lower shelf might help and getting the loaf in sooner to bake.

pmccool's picture
pmccool

That will allow the dough to fill the pan when it is ready to bake, saving you the worry about over-proofing.

Paul

NurseRatched's picture
NurseRatched

But I think everyone has hit on a separate issue that was at play - I really appreciate the input! I'm including some photos, as I'm always happy to show off my bottom. :) You can definitely see that it is a much lighter color than the top crust. I had my baking stone in at the baking temperature and didn't preheat the oven at max heat - I figured I would follow the recipe exactly as written first and give it a go. But there not being enough heat in those elements would make sense based on my actions.

Additionally, with proofing, there was not a ton of bread in each loaf pan - so even though I was within the time parameters given by the recipe, I may not have been able to truly gauge a doubling in size as it happened, even with measuring. I'll definitely add more in next time.

 

gary.turner's picture
gary.turner

Your camera defaults to landscape mode, wider than tall. You rotated the camera to get portrait mode, taller than wide. But to not have sideways images when viewing, you need to rotate the image canvas.

You probably have some kind of paint program on your computer that will allow you to do a rotation. I tend to prefer using a command-line application due to its being so much quicker. One simple command, and it's done. (In this example, I also renamed the rotated img to something meaningful, all in one fell swoop.)

convert IMG_2479.JPG -rotate 90 NurseRatched-90.jpg

See ImageMagick. For the common stuff you do to pics, the command-line is much faster than the graphic apps.

gary

NurseRatched's picture
NurseRatched

Oh my god that was killing me! Good to know for the future. 

Norcalbaker's picture
Norcalbaker

there's a few things happening there. Proofing, shaping, and heat.

Minioven's suggestion to lower your oven rack is a good one.  

Are you adding steam?  Steam helps with crust quality.  I think humidity helps when proofing too.  I use my oven to proof. I put a pan of boiling water in the oven to add humdity before proofing.

Proofing is a passive step, but it's complicated since so many variables come into play. You mentioned timing and doubling in size. Both are problematic in determining whether the dough is ready to be baked as some ingredients (more info below if you're interested) slow yeast activity, and there is no way to quantify "size" into an accurate measurement.

A better gauge is the poke test. Just sprinkle a spot of flour on a very small area, then gently poke your finger in on more than 1/2 inch.
- Under proofed: dough will spring back very quickly.
- Adequately proofed: dough will spring back gradually, and may leave a very slight dent near the top
- Over proofed dough will not spring back

-----------//////----------

Three common ingredients used in sandwich bread that can slow or stop yeast activity: sugar, salt, and fat.

Sugar is a double edged sword. It's food for yeast, but sugar is hygroscopic, meaning it takes water from its environment. Yeast, as a live organisms, requires water to grow. Too much sugar will slow yeast development as it takes water from yeast. Sugar is sugar, doesn't mater if it's granulated, honey, molasses, fruit, etc. If your recipe has sugar in any form, and most sandwich breads do, it will affect proofing.

Salt also inhibits yeast development. Salt can kill yeast and completely stop the proofing process if it comes in direct contact with the yeast. I'm not familiar with Levy Berambaum's breads, just her cakes. So I don't know her mixing methods. If the recipe throws the salt into the dry ingredients and mixes everything together, try adding the salt last instead. Mix the dough without the salt, and let the dough sit to hydrate for about 20 -30 minutes. Only add the salt in the last few minutes of mixing.

Fat is also a yeast inhibitor; it also slows gluten development. Rise happens when the gluten structure is expanded by carbon dioxide produced by the yeast. Both have to be in balance for a good rise.

More often than not I find doughs with both sugar and fat to need considerably more time than stated in the recipes. I pretty much ignore stated rise time on a recipe when there's a combination of yeast inhibitors. Poke test is best.

You mentioned some difficulty with shaping. Below are links to videos on the technical aspects of proper kneading form (so as not to tear the skin and use too much flour) and shaping that may be helpful. About four years ago the head baker of an artisan bakery told me I was kneading all wrong. The technique in the King Arthur Flour video is the way he taught me to knead. It really made a difference in the amount of bench flour I now use. Where I had been using about 1/2 cup of flour, I now only use about two tablespoons. Its all about keeping the integrity of the skin intact.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vEG1BjWroT0

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZqJyalYqKU

The last link is to a quick reference bread troubleshooting guide. It's directed toward commercial production, but the issues are equally applicable to home baking.  I keep a copy in my baking binder.

http://www.progressivebaker.com/downloads/Bread.pdf