March 16, 2017 - 11:34am
Spelt Starter question
So I made two loaves in my dad's old bread maker. One whole wheat, one spelt. Both came out pretty dense but edible with sufficient toppings.
I took the leftover spelt and began a starter (50g each spelt flour and water). At 36 hours it appears to have almost doubled in size, so growth is good. The only thing I'm not clear on from the instructions is feeding. The site I was reading doesn't mention any feeding or halving until around Day 4. Is this normal for a spelt-based starter?
Also - I'm out of spelt flour and probably won't be getting any more. I was planning on feeding with white whole wheat flour unless this would create issues...
Thanks ahead of time for the feedback...
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I have a (white) spelt starter - I kicked it off from my white wheat starter. A couple of uses later and the wheat content was down to homeopathic levels, so that's fine. So convert yours to wheat to keep a starter going, then back to spelt if you like - or keep it wheat. It all depends on your aim - I have customers who want 100% spelt, so I keep a spelt starter for them, but if you've no plans to make more spelt bread, then just feed it wheat. It'll be fine with whatever regime you use.
-Gordon
48 hours - starting to thicken, smelled a bit like cheese - wife not impressed LOL
I went ahead and added another 50g water and 50g flour (rest of the spelt and some whole wheat white flour).
Tomorrow we will see - still a valid starter or not? Hopefully so.
In the meantime, making another batch in the bread machine, about half and half pastry and bread flour. May have chosen a setting that is too short, will see...
Basically I am winging it here.
might be dead day 4-5. Don't worry about it. You don't what to dilute the culture the first 3 days by tossing any of it because you want it to keep getting more acidic so the bad wee beasties die off (because they can't take the acid and the good we beasties start to take over because they can take the acid. Just remember to nit feed itif there isn't any activity - no food is being eaten and you don't want the culture to get less acidic than it should be by feeding it too much.
Happy starter making and baking
Machine loaf still square but had to wrap it before wife ate it all! So that's good.
She still thinks the starter smells like puke. lol
a discarding/feeding if it is smelling unpleasant. Gotta get over that bad beastie phase.
This morning the starter has a shallow layer of liquid on top. This appears to be normal, but it's only been about 8 hours since I fed it, so not sure if I should stir it back in yet, or at all...?
stir and wait out the rest of the 24 hrs before adding any flour to thicken.
Definitely need to stir...
https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/dsMnFVG3U9KSnvyOLiujDnYoO4s75eoVZmdYD5C9csb
Started on Tuesday, fed on Thursday, did not discard. Stirred on Friday. Now Saturday morning. No discernable growth, no visible bubbles under liquid layer. Very mild parmesan odor. Apartment temp is 76f.
I'm not convinced it is alive. Was hoping to make a couple of loaves this next week.
it looks good, saw the photos. Very normal. You can add a level tablespoon of flour every 24 hours if you want to. Cheesy aroma is the first sign that the correct bacteria have started to dominate. Now we wait for the beer undertones. First it will be mild, so don't get too eager to feed it, Then 24 hours later it intensifies, time to thicken up the starter with more flour. When that starts to rise, time to remove some of the starter from the culture dish (save and don't throw away that culture, just continue on normally, just in case the following test fails) ...remove some of the starter and give it a good feeding.
I go for one weight starter to ten weights flour and 7 weights of water depending on type of flour (more for rye) feeding and watch it for 24 hours with the recipe ready in case it steps up to the 8 to 10 hour mark (and it usually does) Wait a few hours to ensure it is peaked ( including prodding it gently to see if it stays up) and while it is still peaked or just falling down, make the recipe dough. If it takes more than 20 hours to peak at 75°F or above, then go back to pampering the starter culture and feed the test to the compost.
You will get there. Waiting for just the right moment with the yeasts is worth the wait.
This is a close up of your starter surface:
See all those bubbles on the surface? Those are from the bacteria and they are not trapped in the flour layer because the culture is very wet and they are not from yeast because yeast is very active and would stir up the starter making the water layer much more cloudy. But there is enough activity on the flour surface layer that it is blurry and not a clear line. That is activity. :)
... and a sharper photo might help...
A few more pics from this morning, five hours after last stir. Trying to get them sharper, but smartphone camera is being ornery. Still rather benign, not much action that I can see. Smell has diminished, until I stirred again :)
Very normal. Keep warm and stir. When it wakes up carry on with feeds. It'll test your patience.
If in a day or two it hasn't woken up and the smell is worse then a tsp or two of fresh spelt, just to off set the bad bacteria, should be fine. No need to discard.
Your starter is becoming acidic and a big feed at this time will slow it down.
No bubbles, no growth. Just liquid on top of flour slush. Stirred three times today.
and spit it out. Test for sour. How sour is it? if very sour, add some fresh flour food. Spelt is a very old variety of wheat and digests faster than AP. Might want to put a sandwich sized collapsed plastic bag over the starter jar and fix tightly with a rubber band. Let the bag fill with gas to show activity... that is, after feeding.
Yep, sour! Added 25g flour, stirred, bagged.
Let's try that again...
Looks like the liquid is getting darker and the flour slurry lighter. also a good sign.
Maybe a dozen on the surface this morning. Progress!
And a tsp or two of spelt flour just to thicken it up and a bit of food?
Give it a good stir and keep warm.
Your patience will pay off.
Edit: just saw that you added 25g yesterday and that photo was before that. For now just stir!
pic, stir, cover
But looking good! Leave it for now and give it another 12-24 hours. Carry on with stirring and keep warm. By this time tomorrow I think it can take some thickening up. If need be discard a tad then add some flour to form a thick paste. I think it'll spring to life after that.
Actually the consistency is currently a lot like pancake batter. No liquid layer on top this morning!
Are you still feeding it spelt? If so, then do expect it to be runny - even at 100% hydration. Mine is. (but that's just a sample size of one, so make of that what you will!)
I feed mine white spelt as feeding it wholemeal spelt just makes it run away. It ferments very quickly. Bear in-mind that (from what I gather), spelt has an in-balance in the 2 main gluten proteins - it has lots of stretch, but not a lot of spring.
My spelt loaves have 35% wholemeal spelt to 65% white spelt plus the white spelt starter.
-Gordon
The first 70g or so of wheat was spelt, the remaining 55g has been white whole wheat.
From thickening up even further. But that can be the next feed. When it comes to life you'll see more rising when it's a lower hydration. It looks very promising and perhaps you could even thicken it up somewhat now but see how it goes in the next 12-24 hours. If it begins to foam and froth then forge ahead.
36 hours later...the only thing that seems to have improved is the smell - very little bitter smell, now with a hint of yeast/beer smell to it. But only a hint.
Frankly, I'm about ready to call this one. Day 6 and there are no signs of fermentation. It hasn't grown a centimeter. I'm sure I could start a new batch that would be ahead of this one in 36 hours.
I see signs of fermentation in there. See those little bubbles? It's alive. Don't get hung up on the growing. Focus on the bubbles. They are the sign that things are moving along. The growing will happen when you have more of those bubbles and when your starter is thicker. Just coddle it along right now by stirring and keeping it in a warm place. When you see more bubbles, feed it. Just be patient!
and little water. Make it like a wet dough. Abe;s instincts were right
It seems pretty thick. Just stirred it. Still has the consistency of a good, thick pancake batter.
However, I hesitate to waste any more flour on this one. We'll be out of town Fri. - Sun. so I think I'll just start over this next Monday. I have a nice new Weck jar ready to go. :)
than pancake batter. I don't think you are getting the picture in how thick this should be!
Do me a favour! Just feed the thing until the weekend and on Friday, give it enough flour so that is is hard to stir and get it all wet. Then put it in the fridge for the weekend. It will be fine.
bread. The main problens people ahv with nesw starters is
1 they don't have enough patience
2 the starter is too cold - 78 F is perfect
3 they over feed it
4 they think it is dead during the dormant stage on days 4-5
5 they have it way too thin which starves it and causes hooch .
lt have enough patience
ok, added another 50g flour. Couldn't stir it was so thick. Added 1 Tbsp warm water. Now it's very thick.
2nd stirring see if it can double in volume 4 hours later. If so congrats, you are there and the proud daddy of a new speltie!
Now keep it cozy (warm).
The apartment stays at 76 degrees. Hope that's warm enough!
My house is at 72F and my starters do just fine. If you want it a bit warmer, you can try your oven with the light on and the door cracked. The temp in mine when I do that is 82 F but it climbs over 110 with the door closed. I put a wooden spoon in the door so that it stays open and my family knows there is something in there. Don't want to cook my starter!
I struggled with it for several years, failing all the time. don't know why I didn't see this site. In the end I did and about 2 week after I started, my son got very sick and I spent a number of weeks away, the starter just got put at the back of the fridge. It was very thick, a ball of dough after mixing. When I came back, voila! I had a great active starter that hasn't looked back since.
stick with it! feed it, don't discard it will be fine unfed over the weekend if it has a big enough feed before. Danni, abe, Dabrownman really ace it so do as they say and hang in there.
happy baking
Leslie
So your starter can be left to do its own thing at its own pace.
Seriously, 6 days is nothing in the life of a starter. If you thicken it up, just stir and keep warm it'll wake up soon. Think of the quiet stage as a break from all that feeding. Enjoy it knowing your starter is still doing stuff.
If you give up now and start again you'll only go through the same thing next time. We've all been there and done that. The only way is forward.
You say 'all that feeding' - but I've only fed it once every other day. But I'll gladly let it sit in the fridge until I return. No problems.
So far this morning there are maybe 2 tiny bubbles on the surface. I'll give it a stir before I go to work.
You say 'all that feeding' - but I've only fed it once every other day. But I'll gladly let it sit in the fridge until I return. No problems.
So far this morning there are maybe 2 tiny bubbles on the surface. I'll give it a stir before I go to work.
some more say to 70% hydration, knead it a bit to make a smooth ball and then store in the fridge covered till you come back. No worries
If your starter has just quietened down after the initial bubbling up it'd be a good time to feed it and go out of town for a few days without refrigerating. But by the time it comes to Friday it'll be almost two weeks and I bet you'll be beyond the quiet stage and refrigeration would be a must.
well well...
And you were about to kill it! Congrats on being the new parent of a baby starter!
so -- now what? It's due another stirring, but what about feeding?
So when 24 hours have passed from your last feeding, get rid of half and feed it to the same consistency that you had. When you go away this weekend, make it really thick and put in the fridge. It will be fine.
Then when you come back, we will teach you how to maintain it so that you don't have to throw flour away. But one thing at a time.
and thin comes from..... now get out of town so you don't mess it up:-) Just thicken it up some more and stick it in the fridge right before you leave and don't give it another thought. It will not be thinking of you oi why think of it:-)
Took out about 100g of existing matter, transferred the rest (160g) to nice, new clean jar. Added 50g white whole wheat and about 1.5 Tbsp of water. Thinned it just enough to stir, so now slightly wetter than a dough ball.
:-)
But now that it is awake (Give the big guy a cigar!) it will go thru flour faster. Rule of thumb is ... feed the starter its weight or more in flour and add water to get the consistency you desire. So if you let the starter sit out... 100g starter fed 50g of flour will go thru it fast. In the fridge is another thing altogether as it is slowed down but the yeasts will still be at it eating and burping gas, just slower. When not fed enough at room temps, when yeast activity peaks, falls , peaks a second time and falls, then those cute little wee yeasties start getting mean and attack each other if not fed within a reasonable time. After repeated low food feedings (can you see where this is heading?) the starter will slow down and yeast populations will drop.
Starting a starter is one brain set, feeding and keeping a starter another. It will not act like the last feeding with a long waiting period. The advice to thicken up a peaking ripe matter before chilling will give a long weekend of peace for sure.
...and you were just about to give in but patience won in the end. Your starter will benefit from good feeds now to strengthen it. While it has woken up just before you go away and you have to put it to sleep again, in the fridge, it really could do with some TLC before you go and some extra when you get back before you bake with it.
But from here on in your starter will gain in strength.
Seems pretty healthy now. So, throw away half, feed 100g flour + bit of water?
Because you're going away soon get it strong with some very healthy feeds. I'd take off 2/3rds and top back up. Add some warm water and stir till the starter is fully distributed and thicken up with flour till you get a thick stiff paste.
Don't discard anymore. Save the discard and use in pancakes, waffles etc.
Lechem - so take off 2/3 and refrigerate it for future pancakes?
Refrigerate for later use. Can even go in yeasted breads for added flavour.
Tonight I pulled a mere tablespoon of starter and used it in a no-knead recipe. That one is sitting out overnight.
I then took a little over half of the starter and added it to my 'leftover' bowl in the fridge.
I then added another 100g of water and 100g of white whole wheat flour to the starter. Leaving it out for a couple of hours before re-refrigeration.
Thanks again to everyone in this thread for your helpful suggestions and encouragement. I will post another thread for this loaf as it will be the first one I bake in a dutch oven! (Lodge cast iron)
but rather feed your starter, take some out and use then leaving out a fed starter for just a couple of hours is not enough to enable you to take some off and put straight into a dough. It's had no chance to peak and build up enough yeast activity. Depending on how much you wish to bake you might find keeping a much smaller amount as a mother starter would be better. This way you can take a little off and build a levain allowing it to fully peak before using in a dough.
When I build my mother starter I only allow it to bubble up by half as it sits in the fridge weeks between each feed. I wouldn't take straight from there and use in a recipe. It just bides me some time between feeds. If I allow it to peak then time between feeds would be much less. However when I take a little off to build a levain I would need to get it nice and active before using. This helps to increase the yeast population which would dwindle if always kept in the fridge and never being allowed to peak.
So either you bake regularly, keep your starter at room temperature, feed it everyday and use everyday so it's always mature with a high yeast population and activity. Or you keep a small amount in the fridge and either take some off to build with (and top back up when it runs low) or each time you bake take it out and give it one or two good feeds and then use. But to only allow it two hours room temp time and then taking a little off to use straight into a dough (if I've understood you correctly) is not good practice.
I favour levain builds as other ways tend to build discard if not managed carefully and if you are not a regular baker.
So I have done some reading here on the forums re: levain vs mother vs starter and I'm not sure I understand the differences any better than before I did said reading. Regardless, I was following this particular recipe, the author of which claimed good results (with accompanying photos.
I think the main problem I would have with your method would be time. I sometimes bake during the week, but most often on weekends. During the week I would not have time to take a starter out, remove a portion, 'build it up' and then mix, knead, let rise, then bake, unless I am misunderstanding you.
The recipe I used is basically replacing yeast with starter in the typical Lahey no-knead method. So tonight my dough will have been attempting to rise for 20 hours or so. I will do the stretch/fold thing, give it two hours, then pop it into my dutch oven.
The one problem I may run into is that I only had white whole wheat flour on hand, so things may not rise as much as I'm hoping for. Time will tell...
A good feed, and allowing it to peak, increases the yeast population and makes a strong starter.
The optimal time to use a starter, or a Levain (an off-shoot starter), would be when fed and peaked. If not used straight away one can refrigerate for a few days and use straight from the fridge into the dough.
Should one wish to feed less often (see the recipe where it advises feeding weekly and keeping in the fridge) then it is advisable to keep less, don't allow it to fully peak (by half will do) and either take it out to feed and use at the optimal time or take a little off, feed and use at the optimal time - a Levain.
But to mix the two methods by not allowing your starter to peak (i.e. for long storage) and then using straight into your dough might dwindle the yeast population in your starter and it'll struggle when making bread.
With the correct maintenance there is no need to discard. There are many ways to keep a starter. Find one which suits you. I do a variation of Dabrownman's nmnf starter. I'll explain my method but it's just an example.
I build a starter up with 10g starter + 25g water + 50g flour (40g bread + 10g whole-wheat or whole rye). Allow it a few hours at room temperature so it rises by half then into the fridge it goes. When it comes to baking I'll take a little off and give it a good feed building a starter to whatever hydration band flour i want. This build is a Levain. I will allow this to fully mature and then use in a recipe. When my starter in the fridge runs down to 10g i build it up again.
You could just as easily keep 90g starter at 100% hydration, take 60g off to use in a bread, top the starter back up to 90g by feeding it 30g water + 30g flour and allow it to peak then out it back into the fridge. As long as you bake often enough and feed it more regularly (no less than once per week) then you can get away by using it straight into your dough. Although id probably go for a lower hydration to bide you more time a i think once a week is too little for a peaked starter at 100% hydration. Or allow it to almost peak then refrigerate.
This way there is no discard and it's getting good feeds. When used the starter will be stronger.
Let's see how your starter fares. But even if it does well if you constantly never allow it to peak, use straight into your dough without a Levain build from the fridge then it might begin to struggle.
My dough, that is. After 20 hours it was barely risen. I tried to stretch and fold and was only mildly successful. I'm left with a big pile of goo that looks nothing like the proof-ready dough I've used in loaf pans. I'm tempted to toss it out and chalk it up to a learning experience. It doesn't seem like something a dutch oven could save...
...well, I've had worse LOL
I ended up mixing in another 1/4 cup (at least) of flour and worked it into a better consistency, then managed to get it off of my hands and into the dutch oven (non-preheated). Should have put a bit more oil in the bottom...
30 minutes at 475 and the apartment smelled like butter! I kinda got my hopes up a bit. Removed lid, gave it another 5 minutes. It looked decently brown on top, so that seemed like enough time.
After cooling I managed to get it unstuck without completely mangling the loaf and very little residue left in the pan. The wife is unable to wait for bread to cool off first, so we tasted a couple of slices. Amazing amount of sour considering the tiny amount of starter used.
Too small, not enough yeast action, an imperfect loaf all the way around, but edible and not horrible tasting. So, lessons learned and on to the next loaf!