The Fresh Loaf

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Is kneading killing my sourdough?

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

Is kneading killing my sourdough?

After a couple of successes in sourdough baking I have returned to the oh so familiar slump (3 failed bakes in a row - one raisin bread, one WW sandwich bread and a basic pizza dough).

There is virtually nothing in common between the 3 different doughs (either in build or ingredients) but all three exhibited the same problem.  A problem that has been almost a constant throughout my sourdough baking and which up until now I assumed to be just a 'quirk of sourdough based breads'.

My starter is very healthy (at least it's very active) and when I refresh it, it has no problems springing into action.  Similarly, after mixing an intermediate build, I get plenty of gas action.  The problems occur when I mix the final dough.  At first I thought it was a problem with gluten development or maybe the addition of salt...and yet even with lowered salt levels and excellent windowpane results I get a painfully slow rise on bulk ferment.  This inevitably forces me to make the decision of: leave the dough longer and get an overly-sour bread or go straight into shaping and second proof (which usually has very poor rise too).

I've tried increasing the amount of starter/build that I mix into the final dough (up to 100% (baker's percentage) compared to the weight of final added flour) but I feel this is the wrong way to approach the problem and has only yielded limited success. The flavour is also usually a little 'off' when I do this (at least not to my taste).

So what is causing this problem with final dough rise times?  The only difference other than salt (and I use this very sparingly) between how I mix starter/builds and final dough is  is the process of kneading.  Am I somehow killing my sourdough by kneading? It's really disheartening to get such inconsistent results with sourdough...I'm not doing anything radically different between successful baking days and poor ones. I really don't understand how store-bought sourdough (even from local artisan bakeries) can taste so mild (sometimes completely undetectable) and yet get such amazing volume/crumb.  I've tried proofing at different temperatures, times  different starter inoculation ratios etc. etc. etc. 

As a side note, and something which continues to bother me although several people here have told me that it shouldn't be a problem:

There is a strange smell that I get from my starter in the early stages of it's fermentation.  It usually smells quite 'off' (a little like sour, decomposing vegetable matter)...but always gives way to more pleasant fruity, yeasty smells.  The same smell is also present in 'final' dough and intermediate builds.   Why does this happen?  What is causing this?  I've tried adding vinegar to kill off any unwanted bacteria, but I don't think it's a viable long-term solution (vinegar pizza anyone?) 

As per usual:  HELP!  

--FP 

 

 

 

 

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, FP. 

You don't want to short change your bulk fermentation. Many believe it is the most critical step in bread making. 

So, what kind of time is "painfully slow" by your standards? (Note: With yeast bread, a 90 minute first rise to doubling would be fairly typical. With sourdough bread, a typical bulk fermentation would be anywhere between 4 and 6 hours. Some formulas use very small amounts of starter to purposely prolong the fermentation to 12 hours or more.)  

As far as killing your sourdough by kneading goes, I seriously doubt your kneading technique has much if anything at all to do with the problem you describe.  

Regarding the smell: When you have just fed your starter, if you smell it, you are smelling wet flour. Not a pleasing aroma, at least to me. The nice sour-fruity smells are the result of fermentation and enzyme action. They take time to develop - hours. 

David

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder



Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Add just a little more flour. It has helped in the past, and maybe the flour or humidity in the area demands it. Don't be afraid of a little firmer dough, especially with a sourdough.   Have you got your dough rising in a measured container so you can mark the rise? Maybe it's rising more than double (If dough is one quart, it should rise to the 2 quart mark)

I've noticed that with Sourdoughs, the dough tends to get wetter as it ferments, take this into consideration.  I have sometimes added more flour when folding but I prefer to add it when mixing my final dough.  Try it.   

You are doing quite well! I admire your perseverance!

Mini O

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

(this seems to be contageous)

bakerincanada's picture
bakerincanada

bakerincanada

I certainly am not an expert in kneading dough.  I am using a Bosch mixer and trying to figure out how long to mix.  You can overknead in one of these babies!  I have experienced some very slack doughs and think that is the reason why.  I ended up making quite a supply of English muffins last time.  Northwestsourdough.com only suggests 3-4 minutes in a blendtec which is similar to Bosch from what I can gather.  Teresa reports that sourdough is sensitive to overkneading.  I am sorry but I don't know what you use to knead your dough may be this is helpful.  Any one have any guidelines for Bosch mixers about how long to mix.  Any info would be appreciated.  Thanks

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

I've missed earlier tales of woe, so I'm curious what you are doing.  One of my mantra's is that it takes a consistent process to make a consistent product, and you seem to be getting a consistent product.... so what's the process?

 

Could you describe what you do, starting with your starter management?  Not an encyclopedic answer, but what you do, how often, and with how much starter, water, flour and so on would help.

 

Mike

 

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

What can I say?

As stumped as I am to explain the recent failure, today's baking was pretty successful

Basic White Sourdough

(I know, the scoring isn't great and the shape less than regular due to the fact that I had to prise the dough off which was sticking to the (cotton) couche-imposter)

 

I went back to a simple white sourdough. I used 1:3 starter to flour, 1.5% salt, mixed hydration by feel for a fairly wet dough. No intermediate build used. It was in autolyse a little longer than normal and kneaded very little at all with one fold during bulk ferment.  I proofed slightly warmer than room temperature (on top of my router again!) and it rose very nicely, more than doubling within about 4 1/2 hours.  

 

Believe it or not, the flour is AP flour which has given a beautiful crumb and a texture which is softer the uber-strong bread flours I've used in the past. Taste wasn't amazing but still a darn sight better than blotting paper.  

 

Mike:

My starter is room temperature 100% hydration white starter (fed with AP flour).  Ratio of 1:8:8  - twice a day when it's warm and once in cooler weather.  I keep meaning to convert to a refrigerator starter but still haven't got round to it.

 

Over the weekend I had switched starter food to a cheaper AP white flour which MIGHT explain some of the inconsistencies I experienced during the weekend and beginning of this week.  I noticed some discolourations (yellow patches) in the starter which have disappeared now that I have switched back to my usual brand.  I didn't think much of it at the time.

Perhaps this has all been due to a bad batch of flour?

 

Anyway, once again thanks for all your input.  Let's hope the starter keeps acting like it did today.  

 

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

Well, let's start with the notion that you didn't autolyse.  Autolyse is a process without a riser, it just gives the enzymes time to work.  As soon as you add riser, the autolyse is over.  While Calvel appropriated the term for bakers, it seems to be from from the greek, "self-loosing" and is generally used in biology to mean the destruction of a cell by enzymes it produced.  When you've mixed all the ingredients and they are sitting there, the term "rest" might be better.

 

Now then, it isn't clear if your 1:8:8 ratio is by weight or volume.  In either case, I am concerned that such an extreme feeding on an ongoing basis would tend to favor the yeast, yielding relatively fast rising, but flavorless, bread.  Also, some of the dough softening characteristics one gets from sourdough might be missing if the dough is fed so extremely.  I usually feed 2:1:1 by weight, if the starter is sluggish, I feed 1:1:1.

 

Also, when volume is used there are two issues.  One is that cups are rather inconsistent, so how you are feeding your starter depends on how you feed your cup.  It could anywhere from 200% hydration down to about 125% hydration.  However, I feel all of these are too thin, as the starter will go through the food in the starter faster in a thin starter than a thicker one.  I usually suggest that beginners try around 100% hydration and then thicken the starter as they become more experienced.

 

On the feeding frequency, I'd feed it twice a day, consistently, as long as it is at room temperture.  Especially if you are feeding it by volume. 

 

Switching flour isn't that big a deal. Overall, I find that all-purpose flour costs you some rise, but gives you more flavor than bread flour.   That said, I'm becoming very fond of Harvest King.

 

A final suggestion.  It's boring, but here goes.  When you change the recipe you are making so one time it's whole wheat sandwich bread, the next time it's sourdough baguettes, and then it's something else, it is really hard to isolate the cause of a problem.   You could just be getting a bunch of bad recipes.

 

So, when you are trying to straighten out problems, make the same bread again and again, varying one thing at a time.  Until you resolve what the problem was.

 

Hope my rambling helps,

Mike

 

Rosalie's picture
Rosalie

I've had a lot of problems with my sourdough just breaking down in the mixer.  I think it has to do with overproofing the starter, waiting forever for it to double which it doesn't do because it's not warm enough.  At least I think that's the problem.  I've had a couple recent successes, but they may be due to the changing season.

All I know is I going to try again.  One of those successes was incredibly delicious!

Rosalie

Carb Addict's picture
Carb Addict

I keep my SD starter in the fridge and feed before use. Today it took off like crazy, triples in height and my autolyse has an hour left. I put the starter in the fridge to slow it down because I don't want it to reach it's peak and fall before I'm ready for it. Does anyone have experience with this and can refrigerating the starter at this point be harmful?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

:)    Sounds like a good move especially if the ambient temps are warm.