The Fresh Loaf

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Fresh Milled Flour for Lean Doughs?

clyde45's picture
clyde45

Fresh Milled Flour for Lean Doughs?

Hello all,

I have been baking bread for a few years, and am considering purchasing a flour mill (KOMO).  My question is, how will freshly milled flour compare to AP flour for lean doughs from sourdough starter (currently using variations on Forkish recipes).  Will I still get a good rise and crumb?  Or will the crumb be denser and heavier?  will I need to sift the flour to get a similar texture?

Any insight would be appreciated.

Thank you,

Clyde

lepainSamidien's picture
lepainSamidien

Quite simply : yes to almost all of your questions.

How will it compare to AP flour ? It will be immensely different, whether you sift it or not. Freshly sifted, freshly milled flour is just about the most delightful texture in the world, very airy and alive, very different from AP that's been sitting on the shelf for who knows how long. If you don't sift, you can make a very fine flour but it will still have a slightly sandy feel, but not necessarily dry like store-bought WW flour. It will also have an almost buttery quality, owing to the heating of the germ.

You can certainly still get a good rise out of it . . . maybe less dramatic than what you'd get out of white flour, but you will learn how to work with it. The crumb may be denser and heavier, but that depends more on your dough handling and hydration than necessarily the flour.

I had a KoMo classic, and I would do both sifted and unsifted flour, depending on what I wanted out of a bread. I found that the sifted flour was just magical texture-wise, and the WW was robust, dark, and full of flavor.

You will need to adapt your bread-making methods, certainly, but it will be worth it a million times over.

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

I am milling/grinding on my Nutribullet, eager to become regular with sourdough .  I am trying so hard to research.   I am pleased to hear you sometimes prefer unsifted flour, I am so curious why.   Maybe it won't make as much sense side by side with my mill but still  interesting . if  there isn't a good rise,  is it still sourdough?  But maybe heavy/wetter so would it have a shorter shelf life?   How might the recipe be adjusted?    And methods,  like slap and fold?

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

home mill.  I know I can't nor do I want to.  Patent AP flours are further refined from 72% extraction 'straight flour' at the mill.  They have spent millions of dollars to be able to grind finely, sift out all the bran and germ over many steps and then further refine the flour to AP.

You will get as good of an approximation as what a real mill can do for $400 - which isn't much but that doesn't mean it is bad.  AP flour is about the worst there is for nutrition, taste, color, aroma or any other category in bread making except being white nd making big holes.  In bread - white is generally bad.  With a little bit of luck and some good sieves you should be able to get a nice high extraction flour that you have ever tasted and one much better for you too.

The crumb holes will certainly be acceptable but it won't ever be as open as what AP flour makes or be as white...... but who wants to make crappy bread in every other way?  There is no color, flavor, nutrition or aroma in any bread hole I know of and why I'm not into holes and white bread.  But for those who are, which is fine by me,  don't get a mill and expect to make AP flour with it for $400.  You can't beat the price of AP flour at the store either.  Once you taste your first loaf of bread made with freshly milled flour, you won't ever miss a hole or white ever again even if the bread is half AP flour..

I use AP flour to mix with my home milled flour for just about every bake that isn't a 100% fresh milled one....... so it never goes away and has its place for sure.  If you like all kinds of great bread then having a mill and AP is a must.  What you won't be doing is buying whole grain or whole flours at the store any more because they are old and stale with much less flavor of freshly milled flour you make at home.

Happy milling and sifting.

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

I was just contemplating about the sifting issue and whether it would hold up my baking plans. since I am just learning about sifting, I came up with some info I am trying to interpret.    I thought,  I need to sift! How!  & yes I must keep reading here but its a fight against sleep or research,   SO, I thought maybe I can still use my possibly un- ideal mill& change your recipe so that I can feed my starter the milled stuff and use a  much larger percent of starter and then add that to AP flour, say 25%? Now i am curious how low a percentage of AP will be helpful.  or more like 50%?   I am anxious to bake and won't be sifting soon enough so I think about these hard bits. I feed the starter everything mixed up from my milling the rye. I dont know if it would be considered flour or asomethin else more gritty or if it matters right now.

prettedda's picture
prettedda

I agree with what others have said. I have a less than $60 hand cranked mill. I just use a standard kitchen sieve and get about 90% extraction. I usually mix with AP (change percent depending on how dark I want to go) and feed my starter with AP and store bought whole wheat.

Another advantage of grinding is you can make your own high extraction spelt, farro, einkorn flour. I used to add wheat germ to my mix but don't need it when you grind your own.

For my inexpensive hand mill it helps to have some kids around to help turn the crank.

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

I was reading how it was good to hand ggrind after a machine and thought maybe one day but not another thing to stop me. I guess I will google standard sieves.  Is it a messy job? I think someone else here said it took hours to sift.   Do you use the separated hard bits and softer stuff a certain way? If you separate them , I am thinking you must.  For example feed the starter the hard bits? 

How about how low a percent of AP you use with a recipe? I asked this above.  I had an idea to increase my starter to avoid the sifting issue. Do you also sometimes not sift?    

clyde45's picture
clyde45

Reading them, I am more excited to try this than before.  It does sound like I should ease into it though, and lower the % of commercial AP flour over time.  Usually I use 80-85% organic AP flour, with the rest whole grain rye or spelt.  I only bake once a week so this easing process will take a while.

After a trip to Europe I spent a few months making a bauernbrot recipe... until I started getting complaints from the family:-D. I am really excited to try that one with fresh ground rye!

bigcrusty's picture
bigcrusty

I agree with Dabrownman.  I've had a mill around 3 years now and love it.  I've used it with Rye, White and Red Fife Wheat and Spelt.  My goal was to get to 1st Clear or Common Flour for my Rye Bread.  I get an approximation but it is 3 + hours of sifting with a #30 & 50 sieve.  For AP you would likely need a #100.  Going from #30 to #50 is a fourfold increase in time for me.  I also saw I had to age white flour after the sifting.  I'd rather purchase good AP flour and spend my time making Horst Bandel Dark Pumpernickel than sifting to get an AP approximation.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Exactly.  I love LaFamea AP from Mexico.  Wonderful 11.2% protein with part hard red and part white wheat soft.   No way I could make that at home.

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

do you use it for bread? Not only cake as I think you said?  pizza maybe?   I guess store bought AP is less cakey?

 

 

:)

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

not 3hrs for rye  spelt  wheat ? For how much flour?  Do you use the same sieve size/# for these grains to separate hard bits out?    how does 30# compare to standard kitchen sieve in how long it takes? Any idea?  An increase in time is what I need to avoid.  But I am so curious.

bigcrusty's picture
bigcrusty

I''ve been milling Wheat Flour to get 1st Clear. It takes 3 hours to sieve after milling the wheat berries.  First, I use a #30 sieve which is a lot smaller than a standard strainer.  Then a #50 sieve which for 1287 grams takes almost 2.5 hours.  For AP Flour you'd probably need a #100 or more sieve. The #50 takes roughly 4 times to soft what I get get after the #30 so I can only estimate the time from #50 to #100 at 6-7 hours.

Hope that helps.

 

Big Crusty

clyde45's picture
clyde45

Been a long time away, and went back and forth on getting the KOMO.  I was leaning away from it for a while (price!).  Finally, my wife went to a restaurant that made their bread from fresh milled flour. After that, she decided we were getting it, and we "bought it for each other" as a Christmas present.  So far, I have only been using it to make bread at 40% fresh milled and the rest AP.   The flavor of the freshly milled whole grain wheat, spelt and/or triticale is fundamentally different than even organic whole grain flour from a store.  

It was a good purchase.  I am ordering a #40 sieve, to get some of the bran out, and begin making loaves at 100% fresh milled flour going forward. 

The fly in the ointment is finding hard winter wheat berries locally.  It appears that I will need to order some on line from breadtopia, since even the local coops and specialty stores only have boutique grains (spelt, einkorn, rye) or soft wheat.

While I am at it, I am ordering durum wheat berries to see how well that works for fresh pasta.  I realize that I cannot get semolina from my home grinder, but will try to approximate it with a coarser grind and sifting.