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Sourdough Fails

Jacob Lockcuff's picture
Jacob Lockcuff

Sourdough Fails

   Alright, so I've been baking sourdough breads for the last year or so now, and I can't, for the life of me, get a good loaf of bread. Over the course of 2016, I tried various different sourdough starters and sourdough breads with those sourdough starters hoping to find a good recipe; however, I can't find one! Every loaf I've made has turned out dense, wet, and heavy (certainly edible, but not very enjoyable). 

   I've tried many different starters, as I said above, ranging in order from 100% all-purpose (liquid), 100% hard white wheat (100% hydration) and 100% whole rye (100% hydration) to 100% hard red wheat (100% hydration). I have always used filtered water (water without any chemicals of any sort). The first starter I tried, the all-purpose, did great, but I accidentally killed it after neglecting it. Plus, I wanted to try a white wheat starter. The white wheat starter really honestly has no complaints, as it was very active; however, somehow I walked out one day to feed it and found it molded over. Next, I tried a whole rye, but within 4 days it also molded over. That led me to a red wheat starter, which did great for a while, but it starter smelling a little odd. It kind of smelled like nail polish. Then, it, too, molded over. That leaves me with my current sourdough starter, a 100% all-purpose starter made with potato water and the consistency of a creamy, thick pancake batter (The recipe is out of the "Alaskan Sourdough" book."). I uses around 1/2 cup of water to 1 & 1/2 cups flour with a tablespoon of sugar each feeding. I figured that since my first starter was obviously my best one, I'd try going back to all-purpose flour.

   Nope. Almost 2 weeks in, obviously excited, I made a batch of rolls yesterday. They had absolutely no rise whatsoever. I used the same recipe back when I had my white wheat starter and they turned amazing, so I don't believe it'd be the recipe's fault. I adjusted the liquid as necessary to accommodate with the slightly higher hydrated starter this time. 

   What odd is that the starter smells amazingly tangy and sour and makes great hotcakes, but it shows no sign of activity other than a few bubbles on the top. Most of my other starters have either doubled or tripled in size and have had bubbles EVERYWHERE. This starter had that for the first few days, but now it just seems very "dead." It smells great though. I keep it at room temperature on my kitchen counter and feed it every day (4 cups starter altogether; discard half; feed 1/2 cup water 1 & 1/2 cups of flour, more or less). What went wrong? I've read that using a 50/50 blend of all-purpose and a whole grain flour works great for this problem? How could I fix this? Also, why have I had such trouble with starters molding over and/or smelling odd? It seriously frustrates me!

  Every loaf of bread (I bake mostly sandwich bread.) I've made from any of my starters has seriously sucked. My first starter didn't do AS horribly, but it still sucked. I generally make either 100% hard white wheat or 100% hard red wheat breads. I've tried so many different recipes, but they've all turned out dense, crumbly, and dry or extremely WET. Another issue I've had is the rise. My previous starters have allowed the dough to double in size in both the bulk fermentation and the final proof, but it never rises in the oven and always turns out dense and wet! Is there any way I can fix this? Why do all of my sourdough breads suck? Some recommend weighing ingredients; I've tried this, and it has offered no different results.

  Most recipes I've used have used flour (around 3 cups), water (around 1 cup), salt, and starter (around 1 cup). I would like to stick to these ingredients, but I'm open to suggestions. I adjust the flour as needed to get a nice slightly sticky, thick dough.

Any help is highly appreciated.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

And then troubleshoot a recipe. 

The first bubbling up in a starter looks promising but it's from bacteria you don't want. Then you feed it again and all goes quiet. This is perfectly normal and things are happening even if you can't see it. The best thing to do at this stage is to stop feeding it, keep it warm and just stir every now and again. Once it picks up then you start feeding it again. 

Your starter needs to become acidic. This kills off the bad bacteria and produces an environment for good bacteria and yeasts. Continuing to discard and feed at this stage before it has a chance to do so just slows things down. Before you know it you're left where you started. Stick to flour and water. Add some wholegrain in that flour. Keep it warm and stir. Don't feed again till it wakes up and begins to show signs of life. Should it begin to smell a tad then give it a teaspoon or two of fresh flour and wait. Might be a day or two or even three. Patience will out. 

Jacob Lockcuff's picture
Jacob Lockcuff

Thanks. I'll give it a 50/50 blend of all-purpose and red wheat tonight. I'll report back if it starts showing some activity.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

And its yet to show any activity. Don't start discarding and feeding again. Skip a feed or two, keep warm and stir. To encourage it if it shows no signs or begins to smell then give it a tsp or two of fresh flour without discarding. Once it begins to show signs of life then begin to feed with a mix of flours again.  

Jacob Lockcuff's picture
Jacob Lockcuff

You say to feed it again once its showing signs of life. Should I discard half at that point, or should I still wait for that step?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

If it's showing some signs of life but its sluggish then don't discard and give it a half feed. If it springs back to life then do a normal feed. Once fed again then wait till it bubbles again for the next feed. Follow this pattern and you should see it go from strength to strength and become more regular. Once it is strong and predictable then it ready.

Might be a good idea to weigh ingredients. I'm not sure about volume but gram for gram, flour and water is 100% hydration.

Once it's showing signs of life take 50g starter, add in 50g warm water and stir till fully distributed. Then add in 50g flour (40g bread + 10g whole rye or whole-wheat) and stir till you've got a thick paste. With the back of a spoon scrape down the sides and loosely cover (A jar with a screw top is good, but don't screw on too tight). Keep in a warm place.

It should peak within 12 hours once active again. Once peaked take off 100g and place this to one side. Then feed the remaining 50g starter as above. Once all has gone without hitch then discard what you've taken off.

estherc's picture
estherc

https://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/faq-1-sourdough-starters/

 

This article by Peter Rheinhardt explains the changes and how to work thru them. What used to take 5 days now takes 7.

lpf1836's picture
lpf1836

My sourdough bread doesn't rise very much, and although the result is tasty, it's somewhat too dense. Any suggestions for improving the result? Thanks

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Of a typical recipe and method you use. And tell me a bit about your starter, maintenance and how you prep it for a recipe.

Arjon's picture
Arjon

if you're not doing so already, is to repeat the same recipe and method until you consistently produce the result you want. And preferably, it should be a relatively easy, basic one. Crawl before you try to walk, etc.  

dough0nut's picture
dough0nut

Sourdough isn't something you whip up from a recipe. It is a long, educational journey. Get one starter going and then work with it. After a while you will be able to tell how it is faring just from the smell. You will be able to estimate the time a dough will take based on what you know about the starter freshness and the temperature in your house. Sure you might have a few failures along the way, but be true to your one starter and practice. You will be rewarded.

Arjon's picture
Arjon

One is to get a scale so that you can feed and measure your starter consistently, and also so you can repeat your bakes exactly. Measuring by volume can result in 10% or even 20% differences in the amount of flour used. If you need to see this for yourself, take a cup of sifted flour, then pack it down and you'll see your cup is now visibly less than full. Also, different flours don't all have the same weight per volume, even if sifted. 

Unless you want to create more discard than necessary, try making a small amount of starter. 

Describe your feeding / maintenance process in full detail. For instance, you haven't said what the temperature is where you keep your starter while building it, how long it was before your starters molded over, etc.

What recipes / methods have you used? And what are you expecting the results to be like? Again, be precise. For instance, you say you've tried to make mostly sandwich loaves. I assume you mean baked in a loaf pan, but don't know if this is actually what you mean. And what are you expecting aside from more rise? I can't tell if you're trying to make bread that's crusty and chewy, fluffy Wonder-like loaves or something in between. 

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

One thing I've learned is to give my starter a vigorous stir when it seems to be getting lazy. This does two things - it re-distributes the yeasts and their food (yeast doesn't move, so once it consumes everything within reach it has no more food); and it introduces oxygen into the mix. You certainly don't want anaerobic beasties growing in your starter!

Perhaps the large amount of starter you have is preventing this re-distribution and aeration. Try taking a little bit (no more than 20 grams) of it and putting it in a clean jar (make sure the jar has no detergent residue), then add 40 grams of water and 40 grams of flour (white and/or whole wheat). Stir it well and then leave it be for half a day or so. Give it another good stir without adding anything, and let it sit again for four hours or so. Once it has risen and bubbled, keep it in the fridge.

Personally, I neglect and abuse my starters horribly. I make all kinds of little bits of starter and have them in the fridge in various stages of neglect. I've never had mold growing on any of them though. And most of them come back to life quite eagerly when I take a bit out and feed it a couple of times.

Jacob Lockcuff's picture
Jacob Lockcuff

I bring good news! After following the instructions of Lechem, it's now much ore bubbly and smells great. I fed it a couple spoonfuls of flour tonight to hold it over. I'll probably feed it tomorrow! Thanks everybody.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

When you see your starter come alive. Now it'll need some TLC. When you do start to give it good feeds again (don't wait too long if it's showing activity) then follow the same rule. If you notice any slowing down again then wait. But once you've gotten past the quiet stage it should only speed up. For now begin regiment of 1:1:1 feedings (by weight), every time your starter has peaked. Should it begin to smell acrylic then it'll need better feeds but cross that bridge if you come it. Once it is strong and bubbles up on cue then it is ready. What you can do after a few more feedings is when your starter has peaked carefully take off a teaspoon of starter and drop it into a glass of water. If it floats then you're ready to bake with it.

Jacob Lockcuff's picture
Jacob Lockcuff

Thanks. I'm going to probably feed it later this afternoon once I have some time, and I'll give it a couple more teaspoons of flour this morning. It almost doubled in size overnight! 

So by feeding it every peak, do you mean to feed it after it's fallen or right before it starts deflating again after the peak?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

"It almost doubled in size overnight"

Perfect! Sounds like you're over the difficult part. You have a starter. From here on in you are feeding to make it stronger before baking with it. Your plan should be...

1. Feed when peaked. This means once it has risen and peaked. Just when it begins to fall then feed again. Obviously you can't stand over it all day so as close to peaking as possible but still fitting in with your own personal schedule. It won't die on you if you have to wait a little while. Just because it has peaked it doesn't mean it hasn't got more life in it. If you think it may be a long time before you can feed it then you can increase the fresh flour to seed ratio so that it takes longer to peak. But don't worry about it.

2. When it has peaked and you come to feed it try the float test each time in a little glass of water. Once your starter floats then it is strong enough to leaven bread.

3. Make sure you're getting some wholegrain in there. Not 100% necessary but encourages a healthy starter and adds to flavour.

4. The same as always. If you experience slowing down then adjust your feeds, keep warm and just stir.

 

But I think it'll just go from strength to strength now with some TLC over the next few days. Look for a recipe that you think you'd like to try (Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough is a very good option) and aim for a weekend bake. Or possibly earlier if everything goes very well.

Jacob Lockcuff's picture
Jacob Lockcuff

Thanks! I'll keep testing it as I feed it; I'm using 20% red wheat as well as 80% all purpose to keep it light enough to use for hotcakes as of right now. Once it's ready to bake, will it be ready to be put in the fridge and feed it weekly? My plan is to be able to take it out the night before the bake and create a levain for whatever I decide to make the next day. Would this work?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

From now on you can save all the discard and use in other recipes. Waffles, Pancakes etc (what are hotcakes?)

Don't refrigerate till it has proved itself. Once you have successfully made a loaf of bread with it, while it is ok to refrigerate, it is worth while keeping up regular feeds as long as you can because it'll keep on maturing and getting stronger over the next month.

There are many ways to maintain and use a starter and you'll have to find a schedule which suits your needs. Typically a popular one is to keep a little in the fridge from which you'll build levains. When it runs low, take it out, give it a feed or two to bring it back to strength then pop it back in the fridge. The best way to find a schedule which works is to use it, see what suits your needs and no doubt you'll find your own method after perhaps swapping and changing a few times till you find what works best.

Jacob Lockcuff's picture
Jacob Lockcuff

Awesome! I can keep feeding it regularly for the next month or so to stengthen it. It doesn't take much flour anyways. 

Hotcakes are basically sourdough pancakes. I get my recipe out of the "Alaskan Sourdough" cookbook. It uses 2 cups of sourdough starter as a batter, and then you add an egg, 4 tbsp canola oil, 2 tbsp sugar, 1/2 tsp salt, and 1 tsp baking soda and then cook on the griddle. Really good! 

Thanks for the help. I'll post some pictures of the starter once it's going good!