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Hamelman Vermont Sourdough -- Hand Mix Strategy

JoshTheNeophyte's picture
JoshTheNeophyte

Hamelman Vermont Sourdough -- Hand Mix Strategy

I'm going to try my first Hamelman recipe today, the Vermont Sourdough which is nearly 40% levain.  The levain is 125% hydrated and the flour 90/10 AP/Whole Rye.  Like most recipes in the book, this one instructs the baker to use a spiral mixer.  I intend to hand mix.  Any advice on converting this to a hand mix strategy would be great:

"in a spiral mixer, mix on first speed just until the ingredients are incorporated into a shaggy mass . . . the dough should have medium consistency.  [autolyse]. At the end of the autolyse, sprinkle the salt over the surface of the dough and finish mixing on second speed for 1 1/2 to 2 minutes."

I've been doing Forkish recipes up till now which are all no knead approaches.  They tend to have 20% levain so they have a slower rise, which i gather, allows gluten to develop on its own.  So my assumption is that with 40% levain, this dough will rise much faster and thus requires kneading. 

I see 2 recipes in the book that have hand mixing instructions: "Hand Mixed White Bread" with a slap and fold type kneading approach (that I haven't done before but i like this video: http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough.html), and "Unkneaded Six-Fold French Bread" which instructs you to use a dough scraper and do 25 folds every 30 minutes.

Are these reasonable approaches for developing and is one of them more apropriate than the other?

Also what does a "medium consistency" look like (pre-autolyse) and what should the dough look like after the kneading step.

 

Thanks,

 

Josh

 

hreik's picture
hreik

A variation on the recipe you are going to do is Norwich Sourdough (http://www.wildyeastblog.com/my-new-favorite-sourdough/) which is my favorite, go-to and easy bread. It differs in that the starter is 100% hydration.  

I always mix by hand, always partly b/c I like to feel the dough develop.  Here is medium gluten development: http://www.wildyeastblog.com/gluten/  Here is what they say:

Gluten development is tested with the “windowpane test.” Pinch off about two tablespoons of dough and try to stretch it into a thin membrane (windowpane).
If you can do so without tearing, but the membrane is mostly opaque, you have barely developed gluten.
If you can stretch a paper-thin, very translucent windowpane, the gluten is fully developed.
A medium level is in between these two extremes: the windowpane is translucent with some opaque areas.
The progression from minimally to fully developed gluten:

You can do it all by hand. Promise.  Slap and fold is find also.

Good luck

hester

Gluten development is tested with the “windowpane test.” Pinch off about two tablespoons of dough and try to stretch it into a thin membrane (windowpane).

If you can do so without tearing, but the membrane is mostly opaque, you have barely developed gluten.

If you can stretch a paper-thin, very translucent windowpane, the gluten is fully developed.

A medium level is in between these two extremes: the windowpane is translucent with some opaque areas.

The progression from minimally to fully developed gluten:

- See more at: http://www.wildyeastblog.com/gluten/#sthash.NWj2q9DA.dpuf
JoshTheNeophyte's picture
JoshTheNeophyte

Thanks, Hester.  

The Vermont sourdough seems to have come out pretty nicely.  65% hydration dough is much easier to handle than the 85%-hyrdration-FWSY  doughs that I had been working with, so that was pleasant surprise.

I have a question about the recipe: Most recipes i've seen have just flour and water in the autolyse step.  This has the levain as well.  Anyone have any thoughts on this choice?  

I did a basic mix-to-combine with the flour, water and levain and then let it sit for a full hour before adding the salt and starting my slap-and-fold.  I figured that i would need as much autolyse gluten development as i could get given that I wasn't using a mixer.

When I did the slap and fold the salt was not fully combined so some of it went flying around the kitchen -- fun!

The dough was very tight for slap and fold.  I was concerned about ripping the dough during slap and fold is that something that I should be concerned about?

Thanks,

Josh

Josh

Maverick's picture
Maverick

I think it is the high percentage of levain used. Without including it in the autolyse, it might not be hydrated enough to develop during that phase. You can certainly leave it out and see. But I don't think it makes a big difference to add the starter to the autolyse phase for other recipes. Or at least I haven't noticed a difference.

JoshTheNeophyte's picture
JoshTheNeophyte

So my first attempt at the Vermont sour dough came out really nice with great oven spring compared to my prior efforts with much wetter doughs.

My second attempt didn't go as well: poor oven spring and some big holes in the loaf.

When I was shaping, the dough seemed very "tough" and dense, not light and airy at all.  It probably hadn't risen enough but it was 11:30 at night and i wasn't going to stay up much later to wait for it.  I suspect one of the following as the root cause:

1. the starter -- was it past it's prime and sluggish?  I'd be surprised if this were the problem.

2. over-development of the gluten during slap-and-fold? I was trying to get a "window-pane" effect during slap and fold but wasn't really able to get there so did slap-and-fold for 20 minutes.  The dough got very tight and sometimes i had to let it relax in order to continue.

2.5 hours after slap and fold the dough was still very tight.  I proofed the loafs in the fridge overnight (6.5 hours) and it seemed ready to bake (finger-dent test) in the morning.

Any thoughts on what went wrong so I can avoid in the future?

Thanks,

Josh

 

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

1. Before its prime and sluggish

2. At 65% hydration it's a bit low for slap and folds. Hamelman's Vermont has a more gentle gluten formation. An initial kneading when forming the dough for a few minutes then a stretch and fold at 50 minutes and 100 minutes.

jimt's picture
jimt

I'm not much help here but did want to mention that I learned a lot about slap and folds from watching this video in addition to the Bertinet one referenced:

French Kneading with La cocina de Babette










alfanso's picture
alfanso

With the rare exception of a mechanical mixer, all of my mixes use the technique demonstrated by Babette on this video.  I may go over the top by doing 300 or 400 French Folds, but it is basically this technique.  

It takes a little getting used to, and every dough will react differently in terms of how the dough develops during this folding stage, but it really works well.  I've also recently modified my strategy by dividing the number of folds by two, either 150 or 200, and then giving the dough a 4-5 minute rest before the second half of the folds.  The dough relaxes, you relax, and the gluten can start to work its magic during the short rest.  This is not unlike some bakers who give a rest between 1st and 2nd speed for their mixes.

A word of caution - be quite careful with the first few folds, especially for higher hydration dough.  The dough will be in the goopy mass state at the start and completely undeveloped.  You will be picking dough bits from all over the kitchen and yourself.  But in just a matter of as few as 10 French Folds, the transformation of the dough is amazing.

alan

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

sets total.  Shows you how good the technique is....no matter how many slaps you give that dough:-)  You can give it as many as you want in the first hour though - used to do 800 when I was being driven by German technical professionals, paw proficiency and the trains running on time:-) 

What we know now is that gluten starts to form as soon as the water hits the flour and no dough manipulations at all will result in a fine bread - and how No Knead bread came to prominence.

Understanding what happens when you do mess with the dough, and when you do i, is what is important since these manipulatipons also increase the gluten matrix in bread.

Thankfully, the dough doesn't really care too much about anything at all and you can get great results doing just about anything, or nothing to the poor lump of dough.

Happy baking

PS. Babette also taught me how to do slap and folds when she was linked to this fine video by another Fresh Lofian, so many years ago now. 

JoshTheNeophyte's picture
JoshTheNeophyte

1. My starter was fed a good 2 hours before I mixed this bread so I don't think it was too young

2. i have watched the Bertinet slap-and-fold video.

I think Lechem's comment above is probably right:"At 65% hydration it's a bit low for slap and folds. Hamelman's Vermont has a more gentle gluten formation. An initial kneading when forming the dough for a few minutes then a stretch and fold at 50 minutes and 100 minutes"

What are the symptoms of too much slap-and-fold? 

 

Josh

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

The starter build is 12-14 hours. Please check the recipe and confirm but I know this one by heart. 

Slap and folds only really works when the hydration is 70% +. Not that it'll over develop but the dough isn't slack enough to utilise this method properly. 

However I don't think this was the problem. Definitely the starter. 

Correct the starter build, knead for 5-8 minutes after adding the salt then give a stretch and fold at 50 minutes and again at 100 minutes. 

JoshTheNeophyte's picture
JoshTheNeophyte

sorry, that was supposed to be 12 hours.

Maybe there is something wrong with my starter.  I'll see how it does tonight.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

"At 65% hydration it's a bit low for slap and folds."  

Well, that depends.  I've recently mixed a 63% hydration using French Folds and it was like working with a deflated basketball.  So there is definitely merit there.  When I reran it a second time and brought the hydration to ~65%, it was still a little rubbery, no doubt, but more workable.

"What are the symptoms of too much slap-and-fold? "

Maybe tired arms and not much else.  It seems like a pretty difficult task to overmix by hand.  I've not yet seen any identifiable degradation of my dough from the amount of FFs I do.  OTOH, folks like dabrownman do minimal FFs and leave time to do its work at knitting the gluten strands.  

As I've mentioned elsewhere on TFL, and others will attest to, there are a hundred right ways to do this stuff, and also a hundred wrong ways.  Your mission, should you decide to accept it "Mr. Phelps", is to figure out what works best for you.  Start with the known, the tried and true things, and once there, start experimenting as you continue along.