The Fresh Loaf

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Giant holes in crumb—I'm confused.

LALoafer's picture
LALoafer

Giant holes in crumb—I'm confused.

This crumb situation has happened to me on several loaves, using Hamelman's Vermont SDo recipe. 

Based on other posts on these forums, I first thought I was underproofing. Then, based on some other posts, I thought I was not handling the bulk fermentation properly. I'm using a mature liquid levain that I've been feeding 1:2:2 every 12 hours for about three weeks now.

Though I've fermented the dough far longer than the recipe calls for in order to try to approximate a double in volume, I can't say that at the end of the bulk ferment the dough feels particularly airy and light—when I cut into it it looks like there are small bubbles throughout, but not many big ones.

Here's what I did:

24 oz bread flour

3.2 oz rye flour

14.8 oz water

.6 oz salt

10.8 oz liquid levain (elaborated to the final volume in 2 feedings over 24 hours)

 

Autolyze (including levain) 30 mins

Bulk ferment final mix: I folded this loaf three times because the dough seemed slack, at 50, 50, and 30, then left it fermenting for about 2 more hours as the volume was rather low.

Divide and shape

Retard overnight in fridge

Into 460 degree oven when the poke test seems to indicate dough is ready (this step took 3 hours this morning from the time the boule came out of the fridge)

Covered 20 mins

Uncovered 25 mins

 

Any thoughts? Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

OldWoodenSpoon's picture
OldWoodenSpoon

the first thing I think about is how I shaped the dough.  It is not uncommon for my own loaves to show those same holes when I do not degas the dough enough in the shaping process.  Yes, you need to handle the dough "somewhat" gently, but you also must make sure you get rid of all the really large gas bubbles in the dough when you do the final shaping or those large bubbles turn into the large holes you see there.  At least, that is what I run into from my own not-so-great shaping.

Bake Happy!
OldWoodenSpoon

LALoafer's picture
LALoafer

Interesting—thank you!

Neuse River Sailor's picture
Neuse River Sailor

Maybe incomplete mixing. The levain is not getting to all the dough and some parts see too much yeast growth, others not enough. Plus not enough gluten development, so the high growth areas blow out the crumb. I would try mixing the dough more thoroughly and doing more stretch and folds if the dough is too slack to knead.

LALoafer's picture
LALoafer

Thank you Neuse! I will add development to the list of culprits....

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

"I'm using a mature liquid levain that I've been feeding 1:2:2 every 12 hours for about three weeks now."

What temperature is the starter?  Is that consistent or is it cooler at night, and how much cooler?  Which flour?

LALoafer's picture
LALoafer

Thanks for listening, Mini Oven! Sorry should have used "starter" instead of "levain" there, I think. Bread flour, room temp. Room temp does fluctuate a bit, but probably averages right now about 70-75 degrees. Tonight it's a bit chilly so I'm putting my starter in the oven with the light on so it'll be closer to 80 overnight. 

I discard to 1 oz and then feed 2 oz bread flour, 2 oz RT tap water (left out uncovered overnight to get rid of any chlorine) every 12 hours. The starter has never risen in the sense that there is any detectable increase in volume, but the aroma does go from wet flour to a kind of fruity/sweet with a slightly sour taste during that time. If left for longer than 12 hours it'll get pourable/liquidy and have more of a beery smell. 

I started the starter on the pineapple juice method  and moved it from 1:1:1 to 1:2:2 when it seemed to be exhausting itself before the 12 hour mark.

 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Sounds like the bacteria are fine and flourishing but the yeast is taking too long, time to work on the yeasty beasties.

Try this, take the  1/2 oz starter and add 2 oz water and enough flour to make a soft dough, like toothpaste consistency.  Level, mark and cover to ferment until it reaches a peak in activity.  This may take a while.  Then remove half an oz and repeat.  How long does it take to peak?  Let it get a little beery, that is the smell of yeast.  Important is to feed when it peaks and starts to level out.  The first feeding may take a day or two to peak so be patient and watchful.

What you are aiming for is a peak between 8 and 12 hours. With each feeding and peaking out, the stater should be taking less time to peak.   Keep the temp around 75°F - 78°F.   After a few days play with the flour amount so that the starter is peaking around 8 hours and resting until the 12 hour feed.  If it peaks earlier, feed more flour...  If it takes longer than 10 hrs to peak, increase the amount of starter you are feeding keeping the water and flour the same.  Save the discards for baking (in the fridge and use within a day, yes, add a little yeast) until the starter is predictable for your kitchen conditions.  

Putting starter in the oven with the light on is a good way to kill off the starter.  Better to just skip the next feeding letting it out in the cold than to accidentally overheat it.

LALoafer's picture
LALoafer

Thank you! Will begin here...

LALoafer's picture
LALoafer

So the mixture has been out for about 28 hours. RT has been around 70-75 degrees. When I went to bed last night it smelled just mildly fruity/sweet. This morning it smells like acetone/nail polish remover. No discernible rise, though the side view shows bubbles that weren't there yesterday evening. I'm starting to feel like the balance is so out of whack that I should start over.... Thoughts?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Give it a good stirring and wait another 12 hours.  The give it one heaping tablespoon of flour and one Tablespoon of water, no discarding.

Don't be afraid to stir it, it helps.  

LALoafer's picture
LALoafer

Hi Mini Oven,

I had to leave my starter in the fridge for a bit but am now a few days back into the yeast growing effort. A question: it's at a point where it's rising about 1/3 in 12 hours (which is much improved). At that point, the mix smells acetone-y when you take the lid off, and fairly yeasty when stirred. Should I just continue to drop big TBSPs of flour and water in without discarding at this point? Or does the acetone smell at 12 hours mean that perhaps it needs more food? Thank you so much for your help!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Take some off the bottom.

LALoafer's picture
LALoafer

thanks!

LALoafer's picture
LALoafer

...feeling like I'm back on track. Going to try it out in some dough soon! Really appreciate the advice and patience.

MichaelLily's picture
MichaelLily

Starter not ready.  End of story.  I did not read your post but I have seen that bread enough times to know.  Others will help you fix the problem.  But the problem is your starter not being ready.

LALoafer's picture
LALoafer

Thanks MichaelLily!

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

Yes, I'd agree that the yeast in the starter isn't 'strong' enough, particularly if the starter doesn't increase in size when you feed it and stays pourable rather than pillowy. To check if this is the problem, try making a loaf with everything else exactly the same (including the handling for now) but adding a bit (say, 1/16th to 1/8th of a teaspoon) of commercial dry yeast to the dough after the autolyze. See how that one turns out. If it's good, then follow Mini's instructions to beef up your starter.

The other thing that I agree with is that the dough is not fully developed. Sometimes it takes more than just stretching and folding; you have to work it a bit more before you let it bulk ferment, and stretch and fold a couple of times during the bulk as well. Don't be afraid to shape a bit more aggressively either, especially once you get a more active yeast working on it and stronger gluten development.

LALoafer's picture
LALoafer

Thank you!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

It's the classic sign of a very young and immature starter. Some good feedings and making sure it is at the optimal strength to use will help.

SJB87's picture
SJB87

How do you know if a starter is ready besides the float test and the smell? My starter exhibited both and when it peaks (around 10 - 12 hours), it only rises to about double its volume in a mason jar. Compared to the active starter above, my starter came nowhere close to the amount of rise as shown above. I have tried feeding it at 12 hour intervals and 8 hour intervals but it still doesn't expand as much. My room temp is in the low 70s and high 60s, so that could be a factor. Recently I kept it in a warmer area such as top of fridge, but still no change. 

Any idea as to what I should be doing so that my starter expands a lot more when it peaked? My starter consist of 100% WW and filtered water. Usually I retain 30g starter, and feed it with 30g 100% WW and 30g H2O. Lately, I've been retaining a little bit more starter in hopes I can get more activity, but difference hasn't been significant. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Room temp is in the low 70s and high 60s, so that could be a factor.   true, find a warmer place for your starter to grow until the yeast population is way up.

The starter could be thin and gas escapes before it rises so high.  Not to worry too much because later a dough will trap the gas and rise.  12 hrs is not bad at all for those temps but when I think the ratio is 1:1:1  (s:w:f) it should be faster.  Let it ferment longer and don't be too eager to put it on a 12 hr schedule yet.  Get it warmer and watch it.    

Whole wheat doesn't rise as high as sifted white wheat flour.  Be careful comparing it to white wheat starters or starters without the fine details to make good comparisons.  I find that with larger feedings, the rise is larger (like when making bread) or when feeding larger ratios of flour to starter. Try waiting an hour or two after it peaks before feeding again and stir it down when you see it peaking.  That redistributes food to the beasties.  Getting it warmer is a step in the right direction.  ...unless you want very slow rise times for your loaves... that can be also desired.

You could feed it more flour but that might slow it down even more at cool temps.. Try making it a higher hydration starter, stir occasionally and don't worry about the rising, go for the aromas and taste it when you think the aromas are right. Then go by aroma and taste.   (I have never used the float test, btw)  I go by smell, taste and consistency of the ripe starter and the bubble action.  With higher hydration, use the recipe water to thin the starter so the dough comes out with the correct hydration. It may not rise much but it will get effervescent and may tingle your tongue.