The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Sourdough (from all purpose flour) turning runny after two days

HungryBrit's picture
HungryBrit

Sourdough (from all purpose flour) turning runny after two days

Hi all, I am a complete newby to sourdough baking, I am trying to make a starter from nothing more than white flour (type 405)  - the steps I have been following are as follows:

Day 1, 4oz of flour + 4oz of (filtered) water

Day 2, 4oz of flour + 4oz of water

Day 3, 4oz of flour + 4oz of water etc

I am keeping the starter in a bowl with a transparent, sealable lid on top of our fridge.

The recipe I am following states that the starter will be ready to use for baking after five days, but I am only on day two, and it has turned in to a 'slurry'. It most definitely has a vinegary smell, but there are almost no bubbles, and it just does not look 'right'

Any ideas, please?

joc1954's picture
joc1954

Don't stop feeding it, the vinegary smell is the right one. The bubbles will come with development of yeast what will take a while - a day or two more. I would suggest that you use just half of the existing starter for next feeding, so you will keep the initial quantity. I feed mine with 30g of flour mixture and 30g of water. Starter needs some time to develop and when you will get regular rising in 6-12 hours after feeding and then collapsing, the starter will be ready to bake with. Until then, just keep going and feed it regularly. Sometimes it's faster, sometimes it's slower.

I would suggest you to read the following posts about starter development (maybe too scientific, but very explanatory, you will learn a lot)

The Pineapple Juice Solution, Part 1

The Pineapple Juice Solution, Part 2

Happy baking, Joze

 

HungryBrit's picture
HungryBrit

Thanks for your response. This might sound like an odd question, but If I reduce the amount of starter at the next feed, would the quantities of flour and water that you suggested upset the existing ratio?

 

 

joc1954's picture
joc1954

What I meant was that you have to discard some starter before feeding it again. So if you feed with 4 oz of water and 4 oz of flour, then for your next feeding take only 4 oz of your starter and discard the rest. Then add 4 oz flour and 4 oz of water and repeat the same for all subsequent feedings. As others mentioned already you have to discard at this stage some starter in order to keep a constant amount of 12oz. This way the quantity of feeding will be constant and every time starter will get same amount of food. The way you do now it gets less and less food as you don't discard anything and with each feeding you have more starter. This way it will also become more sour.

Running starter is likely due to fact that you use AP flour. After your starter peeks in 6-12 hours after feeding and start collapsing, the starter will become more runny as well. You are probably not there yet or maybe.

Just a word about smell: sour, acidity or slightly yeasty  smell or like a beer is the right one as we have here sourdough. If the smell would be like sewage then you should be concerned. If you taste it it should taste slightly acidic like kefir or yogurt. I am sure that you will definitely know when the starter will smell as spoiled one.

Be patient, just feed it and keep constant quantity and within 10 days from start you will have your starter. Everybody who started making his own starter passed these phases and worries.

Happy baking, Joze 

drogon's picture
drogon

It might not be ready by day 5, but keep going. On day 4 you might want to remove half of it to give space to keep going. Use it for pancakes or crumpets. It's probably runny because you're using a low gluten content flour. Get some bread flour if you can.

If still stuck and anywhere near Devon (assuming your name reflects your location!) drop-in and get some of mine, but do give it a go and create your own. More fun that way!

I've used organic stoneground wholemeal to start mine in the past - but most flours should work...

-Gordon

HungryBrit's picture
HungryBrit

Thanks for your offer Gordon, actually I am in Germany so a trip to Devon is unlikely :)

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

You are feeding the same amount of flour and water everyday instead of feeding it’s own weight in fresh flour and water. Each time the feed is less. The first feed you doubled it. The second feed you fed it by half. The third by a third etc. No wonder it’s breaking down and becoming more liquid. This is fine till your starter begins to bubble after which the yeasts are going to need stronger feeds to build health. A better feed will be to feed it its own weight in flour and water or higher. But if you do this then you’ll be building too much so you’ll need to discard eventually but only till it becomes viable after which, with careful maintenance, you won’t need to discard again.

It's fun and satisfying to make your own starter but i will second Gordon's offer if you're in London. You can get baking straight away while your starter is maturing.  

HungryBrit's picture
HungryBrit

Thank you also for your offer, unfortunately I am not in the UK (although I am British)  

Sorry for sounding dense (bit of a bread pun there) but when you say 'a better feed will be to feed it its own weight in flour and water or higher', I guess you mean to basically double the amount at every feed? I don't need large quantities of starter, just enough for two loaves a week.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

A good feed is 1:1:1 or higher. In English that translates into its own weight fresh flour and water. E.g. 30g starter : 30g water : 30g flour.

Flour being the most important as hydration can change. Some people keep higher hydration and others lower. This is for 100% hydration. 

Making a starter will be different to maintaining a starter. Once viable you only need to keep a small amount in the fridge from which you will build all the levain you need for your recipes. Keep the mother starter, from which you build all your preferments, going by feeding and topping up when it runs low.

However you maintain and build do keep to good feeds to keep it healthy. But there is no need to discard after it has been made. With careful management it won't be necessary.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

is don't give up on it yet.  It takes time for the culture to straighten itself out.  Helps if the temperature is around 25°C or above and you're not in a hurry.  Feeding is not too big a deal.  You could forget it for a day or two and it wouldn't hurt it one bit.  Might even help it.  Point being, don't over feed.  Spoon in a little flour and add water to keep it covered.  When the mixture stops separating and starts to take on a yeasty, smell, then you know you can feed it more food.  You don't need large quantities of flour while waiting for the yeast to "appear."  Stirring helps and opening the lid now and again to check on the aroma.  You are waiting for a chain of events to set in and enough bacteria to pave the way for the yeast to populate the mixture.  

Good luck  :)

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

day 2 vigorous activity for all the wrong reasons - bad wee beasties are running a muck.  Day 4-5 the culture appears to go dormant.  The acidity of the culture has been lowered by the bad wee beasties so they die off but the good wee beasties are still weak and haven't taken over yet.  Day 6-7 the activity picks up for all the right reasons and by day 10 you can make a loaf of bread

Why folks pick the hardest way to make a starter is beyond me but most of us did the same thing using white flour and no acid in the mix to start.

Happy SD baking 

Greggy_bread's picture
Greggy_bread

Currently coming up to my first bake with my 2 week old starter (wish me luck!) so I don't profess to be a sourdough expert in any regard, but if you're using AP and you think the mix is too soupy you could surely just reduce the hydration to 80% or 90% and see how that goes? 
Also, though this probably isn't the issue, just to confirm you're weighing the ingredients rather than using a measuring jug for volume?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Don't confuse the hydration of your starter and your final dough. Make your usual dough and instead of yeast add some starter. 

Add a percentage of mature starter to the dough. 10-30% of flour is a good range.

Procedure is the same but timings vastly different. 

Follow a recipe to begin with!

Greggy_bread's picture
Greggy_bread

Thanks Lechem. I'm following the Vermont Sourdough recipe from Hamelman's 'Bread' book. It calls for 15% liquid starter. I'm calculating the flour weight in the starter as part of the total flour weight of the whole recipe, as well as the water from the starter as part of the total water weight. From what I could gather, this is correct.

I've actually upped the levain percentage to 18% as my starter isn't quite as active at this point as I'd hoped. Is this wise? If not, I'll just discard the extra 3% come final mix time later this evening.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

I sent you a private message with my email address offering you a recipe and I had planned on giving you this exact recipe.

However I make the starter to be more like 40% at 125% hydration.

The hydration of the dough is all the flour and all the water including the starter. It ends up being 65% hydration.

I'm curious how you got to your figures.

Greggy_bread's picture
Greggy_bread

Thanks a lot, appreciated! 

You mean you make it so that your starter is 40% of the total flour weight for the finished bread? That's a lot more than usual, no?

For my figures I just used Hamelman's original recipe and reduced it in size to 5% (from 10kg total flour weight to 500g total flour weight), multiplying all ingredients by 0.05 to get my final amounts.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

...makes the starter close to 40%

Can you post the original recipe (just the ingredients) and we'll analyse?

 

Greggy_bread's picture
Greggy_bread

Sure. I'll email you now.