The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Autolyse with or without levain?

johnm0123's picture
johnm0123

Autolyse with or without levain?

I see recipes with an autolyse that include a starter/preferment and some that are just flour and water. Does anyone know the difference between the two methods? Has anyone done a side-by-side experiment to test if there is a noticeable difference? I have been including the starter in my autolyse and have been pretty happy with the results but

I wonder if there is an advantage to not including starter, maybe the gluten development is better without it as it can develop before the fermentation begins.

lepainSamidien's picture
lepainSamidien

An autolyse without the starter permits you to extend it almost indefinitely . . . you could conceivably mix just flour and water and let that soak overnight at room temperature without any problems. If you forgot about it for an extra four or six hours, chances are it would forgive you. However, once you introduce a leavening agent (i.e. sourdough starter), the fermentation clock starts ticking and you no longer have the luxury of forgetting about your dough.

For shorter autolyses, I, like you, prefer to autolyse with my levain and have noticed very little difference in the results. Fermentation is usually pretty slow in the first 30 minutes or so, so I can't imagine the levain having anything more than a slight impact on the quality of the dough. Perhaps some bio-chemist will disabuse me of these observations (as if!), citing the whirlwind of different microscopic activity unfolding in the presence of a sourdough starter, but from my human-scopic level, I can't say I notice a difference.

You could do a fun experiment by making two loaves of bread : one autolyse with the levain, one without. (NOTE : I use levain and sourdough starter interchangeably.)

clazar123's picture
clazar123

My understanding is that "autolyze" is flour/water sitting (can have other ingredients but no yeast) but if there is yeast, it is usually done as a "retard" at a lower temp, usually in the refrigerator. The purpose of autolyze is to allow the flour to absorb water more fully. Flavor develops during bulk fermentation and retardation. Gluten forms when gluten containing flour gets wet (with NO action) and "organizes" with kneading. In my book, the real purpose of kneading is to distribute the water/flour contact and allow the gelatinous starch to develop to form a great crumb.

Anyone else?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

no yeast.  The only time you have any leaven or salt in the autolyse is if the preferment is very large and has salt in it to regulate the ferment and there isn't enough dough water left to properly hydrate the flour.  The idea of the autolyse is to get the flour hydrated and to give the amylase enzymes, which need water only to do their thing, a head start in breaking down the starches into the sugars the wee beasties will metabolize later.

Salt sucks up water and inhibits amylase action so is it is counter productive and any wee beasties gobbling up sugar goes against the idea of the autolyse in the first place.  Once the wee beasties hit the mix, the dough is fermenting.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Correct me if I'm wrong but when I was asking about a dark crust, bringing sugar to the party was essential for caramelization.

So, not only will you get a wonderful and tender crumb with soaking the flour with just water but you'll also unlock the sugar from the wheat to really get the kind of crust you'll drool over.

Man, it's that sugar... the flavor... the wheat. Oh! It's the kind of complex flavor you're after to justify spending five minutes to mix an autolyse and letting it sit for 20 minutes on the counter or 20 hours in the refrigerator.

For me, if you're going to bake, bring it, Sugar Daddy!

Murph

suave's picture
suave

That really depends on the flour.  Some will benefit in that way from autolyse, while others are perfectly capable of developing their sugars in the course of a regular fermentation provided that the leaving is not overapplied. American enriched flours fall squarely in the latter category.

pmccool's picture
pmccool

Yes, the purest definition of autolyse would be flour + water (or water-bearing liquid).

And yes, use of a liquid levain pretty much dictates that it must be included in the autolyse since it constitutes a significant proportion of the water in the dough.

And yes, one could (probably should) include salt in an autolyse of several hours' duration so that enzyme activity doesn't damage the dough.  This is especially true if whole-grain flours are in the autolyse.

So there you are: it depends.  I'd say don't sweat it.  Get the flour wet and keep moving. 

The only real line that I would draw is to not use commercial yeast in an autolyse, since it's fermentation rate is so much faster than wild yeast.  If a yeasted preferment such as a biga or poolish is called for, that should be kept separate from the portion of the flour that is autolysed.

Paul

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Or in this case, what the meaning of autolyse is.  Since the word was coined for the baking industry by Msr. Raymond Calvel to mean the mixing of flour and water only, then that is the generally accepted term.  Not to nitpick the nomenclature of bakers too much, but that was the original definition.  If you wish to add other components to an initial mix, then officially it isn't an autolyse.  No rules on what can or can't be added, of course, but to use the term "appropriately" it is probably best to stick to the original meaning.

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

More than once I've tried to autolyse only to find that, as Paul points out, there isn't enough hydration.

This weekend I did a Hamelman WW multi-grain using a nearly 3-hour "saltless, unkneaded pre-ferment with levain"--not an autolyse--then kneaded, and bulk fermented with 4 folds every 30 minutes, followed by another 90 minutes of undisturbed fermentation, then a 90-minute post shaping final rise.  This is the longest fermentation I've done yet, and the crumb was the softest I've achieved.

johnm0123's picture
johnm0123

Thanks for the responses!

I'll attempt to summarize my understanding of what everyone has stated so far:

- An autolyse starts the gluten development, which happens with our without levain.
- If you add levain to the dough, its not a bad thing but the fermentation will start, so this is just something to account for.
- A liquid levain or preferment will sometimes contain a significant enough portion of hydration that excluding it from the autolyse will make a difference.
- An autolyse also can break down the starches into the sugars, which will be "food" for the yeast when the leavain is added.

Let me know if I have missed or convoluted anything.

So of course the answer is "it depends" on what you want and what your schedule is like. 

Just to clarify, I am more interested in "what provides the best results" rather than "what is the exact definition of autolyse". Not to discredit anyone trying to answer that, but I'm just trying to arrive at the best loaf of bread (like we all are ;)

A couple follow-up questions I have (bear with me):

- How long is the appropriate time for an autolyse of just flour and water? I see most recipes say around 30 minutes, but is there any advantage to letting it go for an hour? or two hours? Has anyone found good results with a really long autolyse? I mix by hand, so its an important step in my process, and I would like to get all the gluten development I can.

- Is there any advantage to doing an autolyse (just flour and water, no leavain) in a fridge for an longer period of time? I imagine if there is no fermentation going, the temperature isn't going to make a huge difference.

Again, thanks for the info and discussion, its so nice to have a place to ask these questions!

Trevor J Wilson's picture
Trevor J Wilson

"What provides the best results" depends entirely on the results you're looking for. Are you looking to maximize dough extensibility (perhaps you're making baguettes)? Are you looking to free up as many sugars as possible for improved fermentation/flavor/color/etc.? Or are you just looking to maximize gluten development? Or maybe it's all of the above?

Perhaps it's best to answer first "in theory" and then "in practice" . . .

In theory, the longer the autolyse the more cumulative the effects will be. So a two hour autolyse should create a more extensible dough than a one hour autolyse, for example. So if you're looking to maximize extensibility then 2 hours might be best. Perhaps 3 hours might be even better still. Of course, there's always a point of diminishing returns. Will a 3 hour autolyse make a noticeably more extensible dough than a 2 hour autolyse, or even a one hour autolyse? Well, only experimentation can tell you for sure (and you could only truly be sure if you can control for every other variable, which would require a lab environment). And the same goes for all the other qualities that the autolyse is designed to improve.

In theory, including starter with the autolyse will reduce the effectiveness of the autolyse. Starter brings acid which tightens gluten, and it brings fermentation. But as has already been mentioned, if you use a fair amount of liquid starter then not including it can actually reduce the effectiveness of the autolyse if not enough water remains in the recipe to hydrate the flour well enough. But what if you keep a very stiff starter? What if your recipe only calls for a small portion of starter? Would 25 grams of starter in an 800 gram recipe really make much of a noticeable difference to the autolyse?

And the ultimate blasphemy - what if you actually included salt? Would it completely ruin the autolyse? Could you even call it an autolyse at that point?

These are some of the questions we must consider when we're looking for the theoretical "best practice" to achieve our desired best results.

In practice, however, it often turns out that nitpicking every detail doesn't provide a very good return on the time and energy invested. Again it comes back down to diminishing returns. In practice, it's the results that matter.

So even though I like to give my dough a 2 hour autolyse (because theory tells me it will give me the best results), in practice I don't often have time and I settle for a 1 hour autolyse. And to be honest, I can't tell the difference between the 2 loaves. Perhaps there are differences, but they're too subtle for me to pick out.

Same goes for including the starter or not. Of course, I often use very small amounts of starter. So if I hold it back, I know it won't hold back much water from the autolyse. If I include it, I know it's such a small amount that its effects on the autolyse should be minimal.

In practice, I'm pretty lazy. I don't like multiple steps. And so I often will include the salt as well. I don't call it an autolyse, I call it a "rest". I can make bread just as good with a 45 minute salted rest (starter included) as I can with a 2 hour honest-to-god-no-starter-no-salt autolyse. I do notice some subtle differences in the dough as I'm working it (I also mix by hand), but they are not big differences and they have no noticeable effect on the final loaves (that I can tell). 

So in theory I know I should determine the characteristics I want from my final bread and adjust the autolyse step to maximize those characteristics. And I do when it's convenient and I'm in the mood. But in practice it's not often convenient. And my mood is fickle. So instead I opt to do what is convenient, knowing that it makes little difference in the end.

As I see it, the effects of the autolyse pale in comparison to the effects of proper fermentation and handling. That's where you get the most bang for your buck. And for that reason (and my aforementioned laziness) I often skip the autolyse altogether. The bread always comes out just fine. 

Regarding the long autolyse in the fridge -- there's absolutely no reason you can't do that. Keep in mind that the refrigeration temperatures will dramatically slow the enzymatic activity (that plays such a key role in the autolyse) but the flour should hydrate perfectly fine (meaning good gluten formation). In theory, reduced enzymatic activity means a less effective autolyse. In practice, it'll probably be just fine.

I know that this hasn't been a particularly helpful answer in that it doesn't provide a "best practice" for you. But hopefully it's provided a bit of insight.

Cheers!

Trevor

 

 

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Trevor, that's actually quite helpful.

Phil

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Depends on your definition of "the best bread".  The best bread I ever made or had was a loaf of 80%WW made with natural levain. I nailed it. Fresh milled grain, active starter, perfect autolyze and very tasty fermentation. I made it early in my breadmaking journey by accident and have never been able to quite duplicate that again.  But I now make pretty good bread of many kinds.

My husbands definition of best bread comes in a long, plastic bag off the grocery store shelf. Yuk to me but nirvana to him. An extreme example, I know.

There are many different ways to make good bread and even the best bread so you will get MANY answers. The correct question is "What IS the best bread to me? What does it look like? What does it feel,smell like? What does the crust or crumb look like?" . When you decide what the best bread actually IS (to you), then you start asking "How can I achieve that?" and each ingredient will determine the technique to achieve that bread.

So familiarize yourself with how the different ingredients behave. You do that by practicing mindful baking. Keep track of what you have done, take notes, enjoy and share your work, keep asking questions. It is a lovely journey.

clazar123's picture
clazar123

When you mix flour and water a LOT of action is going on. One of the reasons to put it in the refrigerator is to slow everything down so it doesn't eat itself up and turn into a pile of moldy goo. There is naturally occurring yeast on every piece of flour that came with it from the field. That is where our source of "natural levain" comes from. There is also lactobacillus everywhere and also our own human flora/fauna that is added as we handle the flour,water,measuring cups,counter,etc,etc. 

Additionally, there are chemical reactions occurring. Wheat is a living thing with enzymes to digest itself to provide nutrients for the germ-load it is carrying so the next stalk will grow. None of that goes away when it is ground. On the contrary, it is now very available when activated in dough.

Making bread dough is actually a contest. Can we get the flour hydrated, gluten netting formed, starchy gel filling the space between gluten netting (windowpane), yeast fed and burping gas, gas captured and everything heat set before the enzymes and lactos and yeasts eat all the food and collapse the dough into a puddle. Whew!

A lot of variables. So start practicing to see how ingredients and techniques affect all these variables. Experiment!. Make 2 doughs-autolyze 1 I the refrig and 1 at room temp. See what happens. It is delicious fun!

suave's picture
suave

Autolyse with preferment in is nothing but an extended fermentation.  That is autolyse with preferment in for 30 minutes followed by 2½ fermentation will produce a result indistinguishable from a 3 hour fermentation, I assure you of that.