The Fresh Loaf

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Baking with high hydration, transfer to dutch oven

Heikjo's picture
Heikjo

Baking with high hydration, transfer to dutch oven

I've been experimenting with higher hydration doughs and wonder if someone got some input on baking them.

The one in the oven right now I did two hours of slap/stretch & fold before shaping and retard for 24 hours. After that I let it heat up and ferment a for a few hours on the counter before baking. It's been in a banneton since shaping. I think the hydration is around 75%. It's a 50/50 wholemeal with wheat, spelt and rye. Levain is made of rye starter and WW.

My method was:

  1. Make levain over 12 hours, then in the fridge for 12 hours.
  2. Levain heat up during autolyse for 2 hours.
  3. Mix in salt and levain, then two hours slap/stretch & fold.
  4. Shaping, into banneton and into fridge for 24 hour retard.
  5. Take out of the fridge and leave at counter for 4-5 hours.
  6. Bake in cast iron pot, first with lid on.

When the dough was allowed to warm up, it also became more runny, so it quickly ran out a bit when I transferred from banneton to pizza peel. I quickly scored it, but it had already started to expand and was tricky getting into the cast iron pot (Le Creuset). The dough was already about the diameter of the pot.

With this method, would it have been better to ferment more before retard so I put it in the pot while it's still chilly? Either straight from fridge to baking or just let it warm up a little while the oven is heating up?

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

It probably would have been far easier to handle if you had bulk fermented the dough for longer before shaping. I usually retard mine (in the fridge overnight) in bulk after stretching, folding, and bulk proofing at room temperature for a few hours (time depends on how well the dough is developing and rising). Then I shape it cold and let it proof in the bannetons or couche for only 1.5 to 2 hours before baking.

Do you pre-heat your cast iron pot first? Something other folks do is to line their proofing basket with two wide strips (crossed) of parchment which they then use to lift the dough ball and ease it (with the parchment underneath) into the hot pot. That would be much easier than transferring to a peel then trying to get it into the pot.

My other solution to this is to reduce the hydration to 70% - 72%. I find this is much easier to handle and still produces a lovely moist creamy crumb with sufficient holes. I don't like huge holes - I'd much rather eat bread than air!

Heikjo's picture
Heikjo

When you proof in banneton or couche for 1.5 to 2 hours, is that all the time it's been out of the fridge or is there some warming up in there too?

The pot is preheated half an hour before baking, yes. The parchment trick sounds clever, maybe I'll try it next time. As far as I understand, the less you move, lift and shove the dough, the better it'll behave in the oven.

Lowering the hydration will help, yeah. Didn't get too huge holes today, but there are likely other reasons for that than the hydration. Not much spring either, which has been the story of my loaves with higher hydration and retarding. I know they won't spring as much as lower hydration doughs, but I should be able to lift it a little more. Can a 70-72% dough with 50/50 wholemeal be slapped and folded or will it be mostly stretch and fold? Wasn't too easy slapping the one I made today either, but it was doable compared to the loaves I've made in the lower 60's hydration.

Very tasty though. I like my bread sour and with wholemeal.

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

That's 1.5 to 2 hours out of the fridge, total. And if you have a high amount of whole meal flour in the loaf, proofing time should be quite short. The dough should only be partly risen before you bake it; you should get better spring that way.

I don't know too much about the slap and fold, as I bake for customers so usually make large batches of dough. I'm not doing slap and fold with 7 kilos of wet dough! I have a large mixer for that. I've done the slap and fold but actually prefer to just mix (stretch, fold, pincer and otherwise manipulate) wet doughs in the bowl if I'm doing a smaller batch. Search Trevor's videos on this site for good tips on working with high hydration and stiffer doughs.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Good looking loaf, but here are some suggestions based on general principles:

1. Your bulk fermentation is too short (unless you have a very high percentage of pre fermented flour and/or a very hot kitchen) and your proofing is too long.  a 2.5 to 3 hour bulk fermentation and 1.5 to 2 hour proof would be more usual. Since you are cold retarding, you could add an hour to the final proof. Note that many will partly proof before refrigerating, then bake right out of the fridge.

2. How you build dough strength is a matter of personal preference. I prefer "stretch and fold in the bowl" for wet doughs, but others prefer "slap and fold."

3. I have baked dozens of loaves in cast iron Dutch ovens. I use  Lodge "Combo Cookers." I preheat the deep half of the cooker, which becomes the top for baking. I don't pre-heat the shallow part. (Fewer burned hands) I transfer the dough from banneton to cooker by just turning the banneton over and guiding the loaf to its resting place with my other hand. (Banneton in right (dominant) hand. Left hand "catches" the loaf and guides it. Takes half a second, maybe.)

3.5 I once did a controlled experiment comparing pre-heated with not pre-heated cast iron Dutch ovens. There was insignificant difference.

4. Another tip or a few: I sprinkle the top of the loaf with semolina while it is still in the banneton. This decreases bottom crust burning for me. I line the bottom of the cooker (where the loaf sits) with parchment or, better yet, a re-usable, 9 inch diameter round silicone baking pad. This also helps prevent burned bottom crust and keeps the cooker clean.

Hope this helps.

Happy baking!

David

Heikjo's picture
Heikjo

Yesterday's loaf didn't turn out too well.

I made the levain over 18 hours. It was a bit slow (using Dab's NMNF starter) and didn't double the second time, so I had to do a re-feed.

Levain
Finely ground WW - water - rye starter
8 g - 8 g - 4g
17 g - 17 g
Discard second feeding since it didn't double in 4 hours
17 g - 17 g
33 g - 33 g
Total levain: 120 g

I let it sit in the fridge for over a day.

Final mix
250 g sifted wheat
50 g wholemeal spelt, fine grind
50 g wholemean spelt, coarse grind
100 g wholemeal wheat
50 g wholemeal rye
340 g water

I let this autolyse for 2 hours while the levain warmed up. Pinched in the salt, then mixed in the levain.

Next followed 2 hours of S&F at 20 minute intervals, then I let it sit at room temperature (26 C) for another hour.

After the three hours gluten development/bulk ferment, I shaped and put it in the fridge.

28 hours later I took it out and let it warm up/proof for 3 hours before baking. This time in a cast iron pot that was not preheated.

Results were unsatisfactory. The bottom stuck to the pot even if I used rice flour in it and on the dough before putting the dough in. It might have shifted a little, or I might have used too little. That might have been the fault of my handling, or that I'm not used to baking in a cold pot.

The loaf development I don't understand. There's a big hole at the top with all the air in. I think I've had this result sometime before. It tasted fine, but not very easy to put jelly on it. :D

Can someone see any errors in my ways? I don't know if the flour mix could cause problems, I got lots of bags sitting around that I want to empty.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

I just don't get the spring and bloom as a hot one.  Wow you have a flying roof and stuck bottom.  Both, especially the stuck bottom was due to the cold pot.  The flying roof might be because of improper shaping and levain distribution but I doubt it.  I like to do a set of 30 slap and folds after mixing in the levain with a spoon to make sure the levain is evenly distributed at the beginning of gluten development and then use stretch and folds for the rest of the 2 hours.

75% hydration is not high for this kind of bread.  it is basically 50% whole grain one with the other 50% high extraction flour  certainly no where near a white flour.  All of it is very thirsty and I would be at 80%-82% for this one. These kinds of breads need to go in the oven at 85% proofing max.  I prefer to bake these kinds of breads two ways.  One, proofed seam side down in the fridge and then baked un-slashed cold from the fridge seam side up.  Or, proofed seam side up,  slashed when un-molded and baked cold right out of the oven.  My loaves like this one are usually fully proofed in the fridge at 12-18 hours - not 28 with no counter warm up.  You are going much, much  longer with a long counter warm up to boot.  I'm not surprised it spreads and has a flying top.  I'm thinking it is just way over proofed.

Hope this helps and happy baking 

Heikjo's picture
Heikjo

Your input always helps very much, Dab! Everyone's responses helps.

I think I got the levain distributed pretty well during the mixing, but I'll note the slap and folds immediately after. The dough is pretty sticky (and will be more so when I bump up the hydration), so not that easy to shape, but I did the usual pulling in from various angles and pinch the top. Even did a pre-shape before final shape.

From my calculations, I get a hydration of 71.4%. I've seen some different ways of calculating it in here.

500 g flour + 60 from levain = 560 g
340 g water + 60 from levain = 400
400/560 = 71.4%

Baking them straight out of the fridge sounds like a good idea, because I doubt they would be easy to handle warm at 80-82% hydration. Should also be possible to transfer cold dough to a peel before sliding into the hot pot. I've also considered using the pizza stone and just inverting the bottom of a iron pot on top, or bake without a cover and throw some steam in.

I think my biggest problem is not following a recipe, and when I try new things, I miss out on some important details. I also don't really know when a dough is proofed since it's not always too easy to go after size. There are ways to test it, but from my experience and what I've read from others, it's not set in stone. I also don't see the dough expanding much during retarding. Which is why I always make notes of what I'm doing, so I can repeat the good ones.

I've got another levain in the fridge right now that doubled very easily on the second and third feeding. I plan to have another go at it tomorrow, but with the changes you've suggested. I'll stick with the 2 hour autolyse, 2 hour S&F, should I still do the 1 hour of bulk ferment after 2 hours S&F? Then 12-18 hours in the fridge. Are there any indications that might tell when it's ready to bake? Then I'll warm up the pot and oven and pop it straight in from the fridge.

A few photos from yesterday's dough.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Hi, Heikjo!

I've been trying to wrap my head around knowing when something is proofed enough, too, but thats only because I'm very new to bread baking. I think I know just enough to be dangerous.

What I'm starting to put together is that I know what my starter is doing and when. It rises and falls predictably like a trained puppy. Therefore if my starter behaves in a certain way when I do something to it (like feed it), my levain or dough will do likewise.

I can feed it more or less, I can retard it or not, you know, whatever, and I can predict how much it rises at a point in time and can see all the little bubbles in it.

What's dawning on me is that that knowledge transfers nicely over to fermenting and rising. Which is very liberating! :)

I'm visiting second-hand stores like Goodwill or Salvation Army or local thrift shops for baking equipment (thanks for THAT suggestion, dabrownman!!). I'm on the hunt for clear proofing containers. You might consider proofing in something that you can see bubbles in from the side, if you're not already doing that.

After dabrownman turned that little light bulb on in my head, shopping for inexpensive equipment like couches, containers, whisks, etc., just added a fun little side track to my baking. Wifey loves the poking around, too!

Murph

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

is 85% proofed to get good spring and bloom.  You want less proof than a white bread.  Your pictures look about right for going into the oven.  Around here since it is so hot more than 2 hours on the counter after mixing, 10% pre-fermented flour and 12 hours retard is about right.  It will be different for you as your more counter time 28 hour retard shows.

 

Heikjo's picture
Heikjo

With the levain buildup, it's easy to know that timing if it's something I can use. Don't know how that would translate to a dough that is first bulk fermented and retarded though.

One thing I've wondered about.

High hydration dough it's not easy to work with it. Even after lots of slapping and stretching and folding, it's always sticky. I've seen videos and pictures where the dough seems less sticky and easier to handle. Here's a short clip of how my dough looks today. Stretched one-handed since I had to hold the camera with the other.

20160720 203623










And here a few pictures from a book a got, where they use 80-90% hydration most of the time and bake loaves with high amounts of wholemeal flour. I haven't used much flour since the dough just gobble it up and I have to add flour every time I push the dough around, but it looks like their dough is a lot less sticky and easier to work with. When I've done stretch and fold, hands and equipment is full of dough. This make all tasks that involve handling the dough trickier. Gluten development, shaping, transferring to proofing basket. Should I just use a lot of flour or is it the way I'm making these loaves or their content that just makes it sticky?

loydb's picture
loydb

I have the same issue. My 65% hydration dough looks wetter than Tartine's 85%. 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and might be easier to hold back on some of the water and use that water to wet knead the dough,  By dipping your hands into the water before touching the dough (I find myself doing this alternately when needed) you can increase the dough hydration and not stick to the dough.  Stay shy of slippery fun,  adding just enough to keep from sticking.  Hands are easy to clean up.

Also I notice the salt is added quite late,  I would get it in in the first hour, earlier still with whole flour.  The reason being that salt controls the rate of yeast fermentation to some degree and the slightest change in temp during those first hours will affect the dough dramatically after 12 hours.  Enough to throw off comparisons to each loaf with the same formula and method... Rye speeds up fermentation, in doughs with a higher % and a cavern near the top of the crumb (the baker's bedroom)  Salt is first on the list of trouble shooting... "run away fermentation."  

Now about that starter,  try using it sooner and at peak or just before for making the levain.  

Yes, don't refresh it or feed it until it has peaked.  Give it a few days on the counter with (1;2;3) (s;w;f) From what I was reading, the starter needs pepping up with yeast so that it can give the levain more pep.  I see lots of evidence of imbalance levain in the direction of bacteria.  

Also sourdoughs tend to get "wetter" as they ferment,  more so than doughs raised with com. yeast.  This is caused by the different bacteria growing in the dough.  The dough getting wetter (than normal sourdoughs) could be too much bacteria and they are turning the dough to liquid before you can raise it with yeast.  

Get the starter into shape first and then try again.  

Heikjo's picture
Heikjo

loydb,

Good to hear that it's not just me. How the flour takes up water also makes a difference here. I'm not using the same flour as the next person.

Mini Oven,

I thought about holding back some water and use it for the bulk ferment while writing the last post. Alternatively hold back some flour and use that instead maybe. Something to try for next time. Maybe also ditch the rye next time and see how that works out.

I add the salt after two hours of autolyse. The autolyse is just flour and water, is there a lot of fermentantion going on there before the levain/starter is added? I could of course add the salt earlier or shorten down the autolyse.

I'm using Dab's NMNF starter, which is built up like the levain, but at 66% hydration, then thrown in the fridge when it's increased 25% on the third feeding, where it's not being refreshed for 10-20 weeks. I just take a few grams of if to build the levain. As far as I understand, I judge the starter by how well it doubles during second and third feeding of the levain. The one I made yesterday doubled both times well before 4 hours.

I got a few starters sitting in the fridge that I haven't been using since I made the NMNF. Could always refresh one a few times and try using it to see if it made a difference. I try to keep my fridge at 2-3 C, but when I put in something large, the temperature will rise for a while.

Thank you for the comments. I've got the oven and pot warming up right now, so let's see how this one turns out.

Heikjo's picture
Heikjo

The expansion and oven spring continue to elude me. I don't expect a big loaf, but larger than these. Do you think it's the starter? I've made a few loaves from the book I got earlier, which is also high hydration, with a starter that was fed recently a few times and was at it's peak when used. Still didn't get much volume.

Same mix as last time with 50/50 wholemeal.

120 g levain build over 9-10 hours, doubled on 2nd and 3rd feeding.
2 hours autolyse with flour and water while levain warmed up.
Pinched in salt after autolyse, then mixed in levain. Did 20 slap and folds.
2 hours of S&F at 20 minute intervals.
1 more hour of bulk ferment in the bowl.
Shape, into banneton, into fridge.
12 hours later I put the pot in the oven and put it on 275 C.
1 hour later I turned it down to 240 and put the dough in, straight from the fridge.
20 minutes with lid on @240C then 20 minutes without lid @230C.

No sticking to the pot or floating top this time.

loydb's picture
loydb

That's pretty much identical to the shape I'm getting. You are getting a more open crumb than mine, but that may have to do with mine containing 20% rye.

 

 

Arjon's picture
Arjon

When using substantial proportions of whole meal flours, you're going to get fairly small holes and thus limited loaf height. Gentle handling will help by decreasing how much the dough is de-gassed, but only enough to give a little more height. I'm sure better bakers than I can coax more height than I can, but for me, while I've never measured, I'd guess the difference is no more than about 10%.

Frankly, when I want to produce a taller loaf, I use more dough as well as trying to be gentler.  ;p

Heikjo's picture
Heikjo

You're right and I know these loaves will never get very high. I think I've made some progress, but still want to try pushing it further. I'm not trying to make the very high loaves, just trying to perfect the type I'm making. I don't expect a big change in height.

Handling is probably one area that could see some improvement. The doughs has been pretty sticky, which maybe limits how much success I will have from the gluten development.

Here's an example of the kind of loaves I'm aiming for now.

Arjon's picture
Arjon

If you're not using something strong already, I would assume that subbing something with a higher % of gluten would help to open the crumb and thus to give more height. 

Heikjo's picture
Heikjo

These last loaves have been a mix of wheat, spelt and rye, neither picked particularly for their properties, so I suppose I can't expect too much. I just need to clear out my cupboard a little.

The main ingredient wheat is a special type from the producer (Norwegian), which they claim has high gluten quality and is labeled with 13% protein. Can one tell how much gluten a flour has, aside of what the producer tells us?

There's a brand here called Holli, which is locally milled and that I want to try out. I know this is one brand that the guys making the loaf I posted a picture of uses.

Arjon's picture
Arjon

but if the loaf you're trying to emulate uses flour with a higher %, you're working at a disadvantage. The difference between 13% and say 14% may seem minimal, but in terms of just the gluten 14% means 7.7% more gluten than 13%. 

And no, I don't know any way to tell aside from relying on what the producer says. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

"1 more hour of bulk ferment in the bowl."  

to:  20 minutes more of bulk rise in the bowl.  Then shape it and tuck into the fridge.

Heikjo's picture
Heikjo

I'll try that next time. I was wondering if that extra hour would be too much. Especially now that we got 26-27 C room temperature.

Heikjo's picture
Heikjo

Today's levain has been going a bit slow. Still has to see if it will double after 12 hours, but with the high temperatures it should've been there now. The starter was made some weeks ago and it's had a bit of a rough life. Living in higher temperatures in the fridge and also been transported over 8 hours in a car, twice. I'd almost forgotten this. We went on holiday across the country and I wanted to bring it along. I used a cooler bag, but it didn't keep the temperature close to 2-3 C all the time.

I'll try the next loaf with a little shorter bulk ferment as Mini Oven suggested and I'll start working on a new starter tomorrow. I think I'll refresh the current starter a few times first to really get it going before making the final starter. I might make two right away and let one sit in the fridge for a while to see if it'll be usable in 10-12 weeks. Maybe make a 100% starter that I feed and make sure is fresh and use the same procedure as last time (still got some of that flour left) and see if it will turn out any different. Once I've used up these flours, I'll try a "purer" loaf with flour I think will be good, and without rye so it doesn't get so sticky.

I really appreciate all the replies and help in here. It's immensely valuable to get direct feedback on my methods and results. Some of you end a reply with "Happy baking", and I can guarantee you that I am really happy when baking.

Another thing I thought about was to control the fermentation process. If it's going too fast, I can use less levain to give more time in the process for gluten development.

Recipes in the book I got uses over 5 hours at 24-26 C before the dough is put in the fridge:

2-8 hours on making the levain
1 hour autolyse with the levain
30 minutes after salt is added
1.5 hours gluten development
30-90 minutes to let it increase 30%
15-25 minutes of rest
1 hour proof
12-36 hours in fridge
Bake

Based on what I've read in here, this dough would over ferment long before it hits the oven.

Every bread I make is added experience. I'm having fun, eating good tasting bread and progressing. That's all I can ask for.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

if some of those numbers are not overlapping....  Just like when one starts the autolyse while the levain is fermenting..

Could be interpreted so?    (I don't have the book.)  

2-8 hours on making the levain           1 hour autolyse with the levain
30 minutes after salt is added             1.5 hours gluten development  (the sum of one hour autolyse + 30 min salt)
30-90 minutes to let it increase 30%    (this would be critical in timing, the speed it takes to reach 30% rise)
15-25 minutes of rest                               1 hour proof  (the average of the 15 - 25 min of rest after a 30 - 90 min proof)

                                                                3.5 hours

 

12-36 hours in fridge

Heikjo's picture
Heikjo

I've gone through it again.

And btw, here is the leaven. I was thinking that maybe the amount of starter and leaven would make it need more time. Flour amount is 500 g, water is 375 to 425. This is a wheat and wholemeal spelt recipe (70/30).

Alternative 1: 40 g starter, 30 g water, 15 g wheat, 15 g spelt - Leave for 2-4 hours
Alternative 2: 20 g starter, 40 g water, 20 g wheat, 20 g spelt - Leave for 4-8 hours

StepWaiting time after
Make levain2-8 hours
Autolyse with leaven60 minutes
Add salt30 minutes
S&F130 minutes
S&F230 minutes
S&F330-90 minutes
Dough has risen 30% 
Fold dough (preshape)15-20 minutes
Shape and proof60-120 minutes
Put in fridge12-36 hours
Bake straight from fridge 

The recipe specifically says to wait x minutes and I don't see it overlapping anywhere. Where it says 60-120 minutes means you must evaluate how long it should sit.

I've found a blog they used before which has the recipe. Translated to English it's still readable: Link here.

That recipe is pretty much the same, but there's no warm proofing and it says 6-14 hours in the fridge.

Heikjo's picture
Heikjo

Today's loaf turned out pretty much the same. This time with a very much alive starter that had been fed and peaked before use. I'm wondering if I expect more out of this than what is realistic. Anyone make similar loaves and got some posts, recipes or blog posts I can peek at?

I cut off a piece of dough, put it in a small jar and stuck it in the fridge next to the banneton. After the 12 hours, almost nothing had happened to the dough in the jar. The main dough rose a bit. At the same time as I baked the loaf, I took the jar out to see how it would behave once it was warmed up again. After 6 hours at 26 C it had doubled and looked like it ran out of steam. As far as I understood, this method was meant to give a better indication of how the dough had behaved since it's hard to gauge with a dough in a banneton.

Is there anything I can learn from how this sample behaved? I've been cutting down on the hours since we thought it over proofed, but is there any chance this one was under proofed? I've cut down the hours quite a bit, the dough doesn't expand much and the results are very similar.

As I said, the dough changes very little during retarding. The volume has increased a little. If I used a container where it's easier to see how much a dough has risen, what should I be looking for in terms of volume change? I don't know if much happens in that area during bulk ferment, but from the end of bulk ferment to baking now, it barely increases any.

Here's the dough before and after retarding. A visible increase is of course at the part of the dough that has the most volume.

Next time I'm trying the inverted dutch oven method with the pizza stone. I don't think the handling to get the dough into the pot is doing me any favors. I also want to make a loaf that is not retarded. That way I can monitor the behavior better and see how it turns out.

Oh, and I bought a new dough scraper. I had been using a plastic one, which I see now is not much good for the task I was using it for. Now the 80%+ hydration doughs are easily handled. I dropped the rye and got some flour to help with the shaping.

Arjon's picture
Arjon

Maybe with larger loaves that take longer for the dough to cool completely, but with my usual ones (400-500 gm of flour, ~70% hydration), if there is any expansion while retarding, it's not enough to be readily noticeable. 

Fwiw, I usually proof until nearly doubled before retarding, then bake right out of the fridge. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Yes, could very well be.  The proof is in your samples...  they rise more given more time.   

Heikjo's picture
Heikjo

As far as I understand, the two big reasons to retard is to control the fermentation time/fitting into a schedule and flavor, with different opinions on the effect on flavor. I could also include making it easier to handle a high hydration dough after proofing.

My current goal is to learn the process of fermentation and proofing. How long, at which temperature, and learning how to identify better where the dough is at. To make things easier and drop the retarding stage, it might be easier to find the spots I'm looking for. Then I can ferment in a clear bowl and find the 85% spot during proofing.

Jane Dough's picture
Jane Dough

Chad Robertson explains the process very well from start to finish along with the why's and the wherefor's in his first book "Tartine".  If you don't have the book perhaps you can get it from the library.  But, in my humble opinion,  his explanation of the bread making process, and the little deviations in process that you can apply to impact your bake, is one of the most straightforward and comprehensive that I have seen.  He offers very clear insight on what each manipulation can impact and how.  By manipulation, I mean timing, temperature, when to use your starter etc etc.

Good luck.