The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Not Rising in the Oven

Valdus's picture
Valdus

Not Rising in the Oven

I tried making the wheat rustic loaf from the book cooked and did two other breads. Recipe and technique aside (because this happened in three recipes) my bread just will not rise in the oven. Starter, bubbling like champagne and Rave in Miami Beach, first ferment is bubbly like a witch's cauldron, expansion supreme; in the proofing basket it rose over the rim and looked like a basketball or a high school globe. 

Flipped it over into the cast iron and it did deflate, but recovered a bit. But as you can see no splitting, no dome, no nothing- it is all fine except in the oven. What retards rising in the oven? Baked it at 450 (yeah that's a bit, but followed the recipe to the letter. Am I baking at too high a temperature, so crust before rise?

Ideas welcome 

Valdus's picture
Valdus

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Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

"...in the proofing basket it rose over the rim and looked like a basketball or a high school globe."

I would suggest it was overproofed and had little 'push' left to get much in the way of oven spring. It looks like it has a fair amount of whole grain flour in it; these ones should be proofed even less than an all white flour dough before going into the oven.

Valdus's picture
Valdus

I had a feeling it was that, what is the test. I have always had huge time/space problems, judging how big things are or what fits in what, how long things take so is there something a bit more concrete than 'double in size'? I followed the recommended amounts of time to the minimum (if 2-3 hours I used 2). 

Is there a physical test to tell you, damn get this thing into the oven? I heard about some finger print impression thing.

 

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

Couple of ways to do that. First, the old 'poke test'. Put some flour on your finger, then poke it about half an inch into the rising dough. If the dough springs back right away, strongly, then it is still rising well and you should wait a bit. If the dent stays there and doesn't spring back at all, it's overproofed. If the dent fills in slowly and partially then it's at some point on the 'ready' spectrum. Note that this is not totally reliable on cold dough or with some whole grains.

More reliable is a shot glass or other small, straight-sided glass container. Put a small ball of dough into the glass at the same time that you shape your loaves, and press it down gently. Mark the top of the dough with an elastic band on the outside of the glass, or a marker. Put another mark at the point where the dough will be double in volume. Bake your loaves before they get to this point, especially if they are high in whole grain flours.

Valdus's picture
Valdus

I stuck the other loaf in the fridge, is that overproofing too? Should I watch out for that? Can I bake that in the morning if it went in at 4pm?

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

to take pictures of the dough so you can compare later as the loaf rises.  

You can also make a rising gauge using a tall narrow glass like one of those skinny olive jars.  Tear off a small ping pong or golf ball sized portion of dough  when ready to bulk rise and work it along side the bigger glob of dough.  Flatten the little ball in the jar/glass and mark the level.  Mark the presumed "double" and "almost double" anything handy in between or above.  Treat the little dough like the big one except when you put dough in the banneton, pack the little glob back into the jar so you can see what the dough is doing as far as rising and trapping gas.  Because the glass lets you see inside the dough, you can watch the bubbles go from tine specks to round and on to larger  rounds and then into irregular shapes as they break into one another (over proofed by the way)  and you can judge the volume in a banneton at the same time.  Dish shapes are difficult to "eye ball" as compared to cylinders.  

I'm not a dough poker myself.  I rest one or both hands on the loaf and wiggle it to judge the gas accumulated inside.  I prevent sticking with either flour, water or oil depending on my mood and type of dough.  I do pop large bubbles before flipping out of a banneton.  If the dough falls, I carefully dust off the flour and reshape and put it back into the banneton for another final rise.  The next rise has to be carefully watched as it will rise faster.

About that loaf in the fridge, if it was fully proofed when it went in, then it will over proof in there.  Depending on the size and the dough the yeast will slow down but will not stop.  If there is plenty of fermentation going on, better to bake it now than an over proofed dough in the morning. I have slowed down dough placing a lightly oiled bag of ice over the dough to cool it quickly and then reshaped the next morning.  

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Hi, Valdus!

I went down to the Goodwill and Salvation Army stores (or any second-hand shop) and picked up some straight-sided bowls that I'm going to proof in. They were a buck or two. Now I can wrap an elastic around it or mark with a piece of tape, sticky note or Magic Marker to see where I start and where I want to end. I can see all my lovely holes, too. I expect this is going to help me immensely in knowing when I'm about 80% of double do I can save something for the final proof and some to spare for oven spring. I bet it'll help you, too!

While I was there, I picked up a nice clay loaf clouche (what's the spelling of that, anyway?) And also wandered down the Things With Wires Sticking Out Of Them Department looking for a flour mill that someone didn't know what to do with. No luck but was tempted by an ice cream maker in today's 98°F humid weather. :)

Have fun! 

Murph

Valdus's picture
Valdus

I still have it cooling, did a poke, did not look good, rose veeeery slowly. I am not going to be a midnight baker tonight. Oh, by the way, did I mention that the brick bread tasted unbef****lievable? The tang was strong, at first I thought it was the 25 grams (yeah, bought a scale) of salt. But oh no, that was tang. 

My plan is to take it out tomorrow morning, check it out, do another knead, and then let it rise to room temp and put it in the oven. 

By all means chime if you wish. 

Valdus's picture
Valdus

i put the second loaf in with naught a thought. Yeah i should have rekneaded it but it looked too risen in the fridge. Came out much MUCH tastier than the first but alas it was basically a giant great tasting pita. 

I learned, not hard-headed, and mustakes are soooo edible- especially when you have roast turkey and gravy! 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Does your oven have a timer?  One that will turn the oven on and/or off without you?

I often use it. Mostly to turn off the oven so not to skip my "beauty rest."   Or if I'm out and about in the garden.  

"...should have rekneaded it but it looked too risen in the fridge."

That's exactly the reason for re-shaping it!  Not kneading, just a flop out and a roll up does wonders esp. patting out the dough with warm hands.

Valdus's picture
Valdus

 This gauge thing seems to really be helping the onion bread I am making today. Recipe called for 8 hours of proofing, it has risen by half in just an hour and a half. Yeesh was I overproofing!

Valdus's picture
Valdus

The gauge continues to impress and I stuck the onion bread in the oven at 1.5 hours going with the jar and not the time in the recipe. I will say this, it rises much faster in the pan or bowl than in the little jar. 

 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

For more accuracy try flattening out the ball to fill the empty space around it. Keep gauge and bowl next to each other and if the dough is rather warm, wrap a towel around them both to keep the small one warm.:)

Valdus's picture
Valdus

I texted my 'teacher' about the rye loaf. While she has also had problems with rising (here in New Orleans things sink they do not rise) she told me that anything with wheat or rye flour should be baked using bread flour, with that injection of gluten for extra buttresses on the bread cathedrals. 

What is the position of bread flour. Every book I have read just calls for all- purpose, anyone chime?

Wheatly's picture
Wheatly

"All Purpose flour" and "Bread flour" are marketing terms more than anything else, and generally have protein levels of about 10-12% and 12-16% respectively. That's the key difference. King Arthur's levels, for example, are 11.7% and 12.7% respectively. In British baking, for example, the standard is to use "strong flour", which is usually 13-15%. Go ahead and buy a bag - it will still produce a very delicious loaf! I'm not sure it's worth worrying about very early on in your bread baking journey, focus on the basics first I'd say. Good luck!

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I tend to only use bread flour when I go for long, long fermentations so the matrix holds up. Bread flour will give you a longer working window with sourdough rising.  That's about it.  If I add flour to an over proofed loaf, it will be AP as bread flour is too tough.  The AP works in and develops gluten faster for a quick last rise with a more tender crumb.

Ogi the Yogi's picture
Ogi the Yogi

rise time to room temperature should be? For example I live in Texas and my house is at around 82-84 degrees and my kitchen gets even hotter. If it's 65 to 70 it should be x, if its 70 to 75 it should be x, if its 75-80 it should be x etc. 

Wheatly's picture
Wheatly

I don't think this is possible, sadly. Too many variables by far. You could maybe do it for one specific formula, but it'd probably still only be a guideline at best on account of different starters, flours, humidity, etc.