The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Fermented "Red" Rye Malt

Ogi the Yogi's picture
Ogi the Yogi

Fermented "Red" Rye Malt

I was wondering if anyone could explain to me whether the fermented rye malt that Russians use in their bread recipes is diastatic or is it just for flavor and color? 

Also what if unfermented rye malt, which is white is color, I assumed that this one was the one that is diastatic. 

But in all the Recipes for kvass, people use the dark rye malt. 

 

Can someone help please or direct me somewhere I could learn more. 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

diastatc.  The red rye malt isn't on the recipes for its enzymes since they are all dead but is in there for other reasons.  Flavor and color being the main reasons.

Ogi the Yogi's picture
Ogi the Yogi

ask for red rye malt, which they cover with boiling water and then add to the starter. I was wondering if you could tell me where in the USA I could buy fermented red rye malt, or what do Americans call this stuff, if I buy milled rye grains from a brewery is that the same thing (do the breweries use germinated rye grains?) 

drogon's picture
drogon

Barley malt extract and molasses. It's good enough according to Andrew Whitley. Good enough for him, good enough for me. It might not be "authentic" but I don't care and my 100% rye breads made with it always sell out.

-Gordon

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

that are used to mane beer.  Or you can do what I do and make your own malts

Making Red Rye Malt  

Making White and Red Malts From Sprouted Rye, Whole Wheat and Spelt

pmccool's picture
pmccool

Let's take a look at the phrase "fermented red rye malt" one word at a time, starting with the last and working our way to the front of the line.

Malt - a grain that has been moistened and allowed to sprout until the stem is as long as the kernel (the three white rootlets may be longer).  Once sprouted, the kernels are dried, or kilned, back to their original moisture content of approximately 14%.  Malt can be made from any grain: rye, wheat, barley, rice, etc.  It can be left in its original whole kernel form or ground to a powder or converted to a thick syrup.

Rye - indicates that the malt you seek is made from the seeds of the rye plant.

Red - indicates that the malt (still in kernel form) has been roasted at a high-enough temperature that the color of the kernels shifts from a light greenish-brown shade to a darker reddish-brown color.  The temperature to achieve the color change is also high enough to denature the amylase enzymes in the rye so that they will no longer convert starches into sugars.  In other words, the malt has been converted from a diastatic malt (sometimes referred to as "white" malt) to a non-diastatic malt.  Non-diastatic malts contribute sweetness, color, and flavor to the foods that they are used in.

Fermented - has no real meaning as a descriptor for the malt.  Breads or brews made from the malt will undergo fermentation from the yeasts or bacteria they contain but you want your malt to start out in an unfermented condition.

In some of your other posts, you also used the term "sprouted".  That typically carries a different meaning, although all malts are sprouted.  When you see "sprouted" used as a descriptor for flour, it indicates that the grains were moistened and allowed to sprout just enough to see the tip of the stem begin to emerge from the kernel.  At that point, they are dried to stop further growth and then ground into flour.  The stage of growth where the stem just begins to emerge is sometimes described as "chitted", in case you see that term in some discussions.

As others have said, you can procure rye malt at a local brew shop.  If there aren't any brew shops in your area, another on-line vendor is NYBakers.com.  The owner, Stan Ginsberg, is also a TFL member.

If your local or on-line sources only offer a white rye malt, you can toast the malt in a skillet over medium heat.  Stir the malt or shake the pan frequently so that the malt doesn't burn and in a few minutes you will see it begin to turn color.  You can toast it to whatever darkness you want, remembering that the darker the malt, the deeper the color and the flavor it will impart to your bread.  After the kernels are toasted to a color you like, cool them and then grind them to a powder.  I use a small electric coffee mill to handle small-batch quantities of things like malt or spices and herbs.

I look forward to hearing about your bread and kvaas.

Paul

suave's picture
suave

"Fermented - has no real meaning as a descriptor for the malt. "

In fact, it decribes precisely what it is, since traditionally Russian rye malt was/is not kilned but gathered in heaps and allowed to self-ferment for 4-5 days at 120-130F.  Only then it is dried.

pmccool's picture
pmccool

Thanks for the information, suave.  None of my reading about malts had ever brought that practice to light.  Ogi has a big challenge locating that product here in the U.S., since most of the suppliers seem to be in Europe.

Paul

suave's picture
suave

All better online homebrewing outlets stock crystal rye malt.  It's passable even if nowhere near as good as the Russian stuff.

rff000's picture
rff000

I buy some whenever I go to Russia. The main impression when you use it is the sour smell, which comes from sitting around in piles for several days. I made rye malt myself, but never fermented. I read Russian books on the topic and the problem is that the outer layers can grow mold, which must be removed, so you only use the inner layers, which also get very warm from the fermentation. I can't do this at home, so I buy it when I'm in Russia (the language is my field and I go there every year or so). A suggested substitute that you can buy at Russian stores worldwide is kvas concentrate in a jar (kontsentrat kvasnogo susla). I saw real fermented malt being sold on Ebay from Ukraine, but the price was ridiculous--$29 for 250 grams! I paid one or two dollars for that in Russia.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

the the Scot's make barley malt in long row piles 3' high.  In both cases after a couple of days the internal heat of the piles rises dramatically, sometimes up to nearly 150 F, if they are not turned over and aerated to cool them off but they are routinely 120-130 F.  Fermenting is caused by the yeast and LAB on the grain once it gets wet.  You can make a rye starter and a loaf bread in 4 days and 4-5 days is how long it takes to sprout the rye properly to make malt as Paul explained  - the sprout, not the 3 thin rootlets need to be at least the length of the seed.

Malting at home we can really never mimic a 3-4 high pile of grain but I get mine 4" high and sprout them on a heating pad to 120 - 130 F for 4 days to try get as close as I can.  After 3 days you can really smell the fermentation taking place but if you dry the grain at 104 F and then grind it you have white malt and it is white or a light beige in color.  If you heat it up slowly and roast it to 325 F  after drying then it turns the beautiful shades of brown to chocolate and takes up the taste we love so much in our whiskey, beer and bread. 

old baker's picture
old baker

In a lecture a few years ago, Peter Reinhart said beer is liquid bread.  Essentially the ingredients: grain, water, yeast, and flavoring.  In the case of beer, the flavor comes from hops and other additives.  In bread, its salt.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

very old.  I have reached this grave out of my own possession, without taking anything away from anyone. Every man who worked for me was paid. They did it for beer and bread.” –– Engraving on. Ancient Egyptian tomb

My personal favorite  Fermentation and civilization are inseparable. Every rise and fall of civilization happened on a river of beer and a huge pile of bread .  So when you fall down, rise up and have another beer with that pizza.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/07/26/world/in-ancient-egypt-the-beer-of-kings-was-a-sophisticated-brew.html

rff000's picture
rff000

I have a supply of a few pounds of red fermented rye malt (красный ферментированный ржаной солод) that I bought in Moscow. The only way I know of to buy it in the USA is Ebay. There are two choices as of this moment--both less than optimal.

A Ukrainian seller has slightly over a half pound for the exorbitant price of $29. A Russian seller has a more reasonably priced product for around $8 per lb.--but the catch is you have to take a bit over 6 pounds, which runs around $50.

It looks like the shipping is the problem. The more you ship, the less it is per item.

I found it on Ebay by searching for "rye malt fermented."

ingo's picture
ingo

You can make red rye malt from 'pale' rye malt at home. During the malting of pale malt the enzymes are not denaturated and can still be activated. Soak a fair amount of rye malt in cold water, keep adding cold water until it doesn't take up any more and let it all stand over night. Drain the water of.

Put the grain in a closed container (tupperware box) and warm it up to ~40C. Keep it there for about 24-48h depending on how sour you like to have the malt, then heat to 50C and keep it there for 12h. Now you can open the container and spread the malt on a plate to dry in an oven at 60-70C until dry and then a short period at 130C for a bit of roast.

There are actually two things happening, you are kind of mashing in the grain and with that you make the starch/sugars more accessible for Lactobacillus to ferment. Also melanoidins are formed and the malt darkens.

As the rye is husk less handle the swollen kernels with care to not break them.

success

Morus's picture
Morus

I have easy access to pale rye malt so this interest me. But with the standard equipment I have, I will have problems maintaining steady temperatures of 40C, 50C and 60-70C. I will have to think about how to achieve this... Perhaps I should look into bread proofers... But counter footprint is scarce in my kitchen.

Have you tried this method yourself? I assume that you after roasting grind it into a powder or?

General question: What is the taste of fermented red rye malt (solod)? Is it sweet and/or bitter?

ingo's picture
ingo

The taste is slightly bitter and a bit sour. The way it is made in Russia they also spray the malt with Lactobacillus. That makes it very sour, pH 3.7 - 3.4 The lacto consumes quite a bit of the sugars of the malt so the potential extract is below 60%. Most of the colour comes from Maillard reactions during the drying.

I use a insulated box (cooler) with a small light bulb and a STC-1000 temperature controller.

I brew beer with it :)

Morus's picture
Morus

Great idea how to achieve these temperatures. Can you also reach the higher 60-70C spot this way?

I'm getting more and more interested myself in brewing beer. The connection between beer brewing and bread baking is fascinating. But it must be immensely more difficult to become a skilled beer brewer? I bake bread 2-3 times a week so i can quite fast get experience and improve my skills. But with with beer you perhaps make a new batch every 4 weeks? Or perhaps much more seldom? And I assume the beer brewing process also more complicated than bread baking.

 

 

ingo's picture
ingo

It can get quite hot, but I never had a need for that. I use a hot air oven for drying. You could add a fan to the box, but that complicates matters.

I've been brewing for over 40 years now and mostly small batches of 10l On average some 30 brews a year. Brewing is not very complicated. Once you have done it a few times it's mostly logistics, when do what. Not very different to baking, but more condensed in time. One brew takes ~ 4 hours. Fermentation takes 2-3 weeks, but you don't have to do much then. Bottling  takes time.