The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

About diastatic malt...

katyajini's picture
katyajini

About diastatic malt...

In general does diastatic malt powder really help you make better bread?  Better crumb and crust?  I am intrigued to try it after seeing a joy of baking tutorial video on making baguettes, where it is recommended. But of course I thought I would ask here.  The reviews on Amazon are also glowing but it matters who is doing the reviewing and what there pre-malt experience was.

Also some reviewers claim that some sources for diastatic malt powder are better than others.  They say KAF is the best.  Is there a brand that works for you? The shipping costs for KAF are so high when you want to buy just a little. 

 

Thank you!

aroma's picture
aroma

I bought some a while ago and have used it in most of my bread making.  I have to say I am disappointed in that apart from increased colour of the crust there is no discernible difference when compared with the same bread made without diastatic malt.  When it is used up, I won't be buying more.  I think I can do without it.

Cheers

suave's picture
suave

Most brands of white flour, save for some organic ones,  have already been malted at the mill to an appropriate level.

jaywillie's picture
jaywillie

comment deleted by author -- see below

 

dobie's picture
dobie

jaywillie

I may be wrong, but I think you're wrong about that. I think it is diastatic.

My understanding is that it is added to flour to match the enzyme levels that flour would normally have had if it hadn't had the bran sifted out. Not particularly for flavor.

Plus I'm not sure nondiastatic malt is often available in a powdered form (tho I guess it could be done). But it's not standard to my experience.

But I will agree with you on one thing, it is not often described as diastatic on the ingredients list but rather as Barley flour or Malted Barley flour.

No offense.

dobie

jaywillie's picture
jaywillie

You posted your comment in the three or so minutes it was up (!), and it was incorrect, as you state. You'll see I edited it to remove my incorrect statement. 

Not all flour is malted. Check the ingredients.

dobie's picture
dobie

To everyone,

I should have been more specific. I am referring to AP and Bread flour in the US. I thought 'the bran sifted out' made the AP and Bread flour part obvious. I'm not talking about Whole Wheat.

Clearly, things are different in Canada and the UK (and probably elsewhere).

I don't know of any commonly found, commercially ground AP or Bread flour available in the States that doesn't contain diastatic malt. I have checked the ingredients. If there is one, I'd love to hear about it.

But I do believe, they are not going to be King Arthur, Gold Medal, Pilsbury or Hecker's, anyway.

dobie

suave's picture
suave

nt

drogon's picture
drogon

I've not aware of any malt being added by any mill in the UK - other than deliberately malted (e.g. granary) flour. I have the full ingredients list for the flours I use from Shipton Mill - no mention of it.

The statutory additives here are pretty well defined by law and malt isn't one of them organic or not.

http://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/multimedia/pdfs/breadflourguide.pdf

-Gordon

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Malt or not. It is a miller's need to obtain consistency. It is very common to add fungal amylases, which do not require labelling..

drogon's picture
drogon

I have received a reply to my email to Shipton Mill and they do not add it. What's on the label is what's in the bag.

Still waiting on other mills, but I'd bet money the don't add anything either.

-Gordon

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Interesting.

But too is this: http://www.shipton-mill.com/baking/how-to-bake/glossary/falling-number.htm

Did you speak to John?

As you know if white flour legally requires fortification, what's to stop them adding enzymes which also don't require labelling. I'm not completely convinced but it is perfectly believable.

-Michael

 

drogon's picture
drogon

you speak to John. I'm happy enough with the reply I have.

-Gordon

mwilson's picture
mwilson

OK mate. I probably will. It's not on my list of priorities at this time.

The reason I asked is that I've been around long enough to know that the first response isn't the most informed.

On the occasions that I have liaised with Shipton regarding a technical matter John has always responded to me.

I'm only interested in the truth rather than being (blissfully) "happy"!

dobie's picture
dobie

Thank you Gordon

I'll bet you are right.

I wonder if the addition of dMalt is required on the label whether in the UK or the US or Canada or elsewhere. I would hope so, but don't know.

I'm sorry that I forget who brought this up, but they had a good point in that (US wise, anyway) dMalt might not be a standard add in with organic flours, perhaps not even allowed. I don't know. I guess the mill would just have to be sure the dMalt was organic as well, but it might not be common practice to add it as with the conventional commercial AP and Bread flours (in the US).

Anyway, thanks again.

dobie

dobie's picture
dobie

Gordon

No doubt.

I did a quick read thru your link and found that apparently, 'bleached' flour is not allowed in the UK.

Is it totally banned? I've heard that before, but I'm looking for confirmation from someone who clearly knows his flours.

Thanks

dobie

drogon's picture
drogon

I'm fairly sure its been banned since 1992, but I can't find a link to that right now - however that document is the definitive one, so yes, it's totally banned in the UK.

I've watched flour being milled and carried a sack away from Otterton mill, still warm - no additives in it whatsoever unless they have some secret tube somewhere I couldn't see. Cann mill don't even add the statutory minerals/vitamins, so I can't see them adding anything else. I've written to the other mills I use to see if they will admit to adding malt, etc. in their flours despite not publishing it.

I know the factory bread makers add lots of "processing aids" into their bread mixes which are "clean lebel" additives, so don't need to be added. Will be interesting to see if the mills admit to anything.

-Gordon

dobie's picture
dobie

Thanks for that Gordon.

If you ever do hear back from them , please let me know what is said.

I know we've had this conversation before, but it does seem recently that the EU has become the standard bearer for consumer friendly regulations.

dobie

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

difference and so can my husband.  I get more complements when I bake with it for white wheat dough.  I use self made.

dobie's picture
dobie

Mini

I agree about the flavor. My first contact with dMalt was from King Arthur.

When I first made my own, there was a definite flavor boost, much more so than KA's version. KA was very pricey as well (about $2 an oz with S&H) and obviously home made is only pennies.

Better and cheaper wins everytime. I'm gonna use a little in the simple Deli Rye I'm making today.

dobie

Jane Dough's picture
Jane Dough

My understanding is that Canadian flour does not contain any malt.  Definitely organic flour in Canada is not malted.  So I do buy or make diastatic malt.  There is a very obvious difference in the final product. I get a better crumb and a better oven spring.  I'm not sure diastatic makes a big difference in color for me because I bake in cast iron and I bake until quite dark.  

I would suggest Hoosier Farms from Amazon.com or .ca    I have used it more than once and find it very dependable.  

jaywillie's picture
jaywillie

I use a touch of diastatic malt in some of my bakes, where I feel it's a need, and have found that it does affect yeast activity, which is its purpose. So when used properly, it can improve your loaves.

If you live in a city large enough to have a brewer's supply store, check with them for malt. Understand that they will have tons of non-diastatic malts, which are used to flavor beer and  have no enzymatic activity, so make sure you ask for and get diastatic malt. (My supplier has ~80 kinds of non-diastatic and one kind of diastatic!) It will be much cheaper at your local brewer's supply than any mail order source -- I get mine for ~$4 per *pound*, and a pound will last you a long time.

You can get into all kinds of discussions about lintner numbers, and brewer's diastatic malt will in fact be high on the scale -- not necessarily a good thing. (Tony Geminani demands a very low number for his pizza dough.) The seller should be able to tell you that number, and you can Google "lintner" or "degrees lintner" to learn more.

I started with KAF malt, and it's fine, just expensive, as you say. 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

You can't make beer if the malt and grain is non diastatic.  You are thinking of barley malt syrup that some brewers use to make bad beer.  it is non diastatic because all the sugars have been extracted before the mash is processed into MBS.  If you use BMS then the beer is poor quality and expensive but you can skip the mashing step.  Non diastatic malt is available in many darker shades and used for color and flavor only in beer making not for starch to sugar conversion.

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-2/what-is-malted-grain/barley-malt-defined

Happy brewing and baking 

jaywillie's picture
jaywillie

If you're a brewer, you know more than me about brewing because I don't even drink beer much less brew it. Only diastatic malt brings enzymatic action to the bread baking process, and that is the type of malt that the OP was asking about. Non-diastatic malt, in either syrup or powder form, offers only flavor and color to bread baking. If katyajini (the OP) goes to a brew shop for malt powder, I urge him or her to ask plentiful questions to be sure he or she is getting diastatic malt.

baybakin's picture
baybakin

"base grains" will be diastatic: "pale malt" (2 or 6 row), malted wheat, Vienna malt, munich malt, pilsner malt, and rach malt (smoked).

"specialty grains" will be non-diastatic: biscuit, roasted barley, black patten, flaked barley/oats/wheat, honey malt, brown malt, chocolate malt, and caramel/crystal malts (some enzymes will be present on caramel/crystal in the lower numbered malts, the higher the number the darker they are roasted).

I've done...a good amount of brewing.

katyajini's picture
katyajini

So much input, thank you! I think the consensus is that it a positively helpful additive, and I should give it a try.  And I will.

dobie:I just looked up making your own diastatic malt.  Its not hard at all given that I make sprouts all the time.  But I am wondering how consistent the available enzymatic activity will be batch to batch.  I have no means to control for that. If I may ask, then, how do you dry the sprouts?  I don't have a desiccator.  And do you start from wheat? barley? do you have a general recipe?  This might be fun.

thank you so much everyone!

dobie's picture
dobie

katyajini

Please remember, I am not an expert, but I will share with you what little I know (however poorly realized), and what I do.

First, I would say to remeber that if you are using significant quantities of Whole Wheat, Whole Grain flours or AP or Bread flours that already have it added, dMalt would probably be redundant and could in fact, possibly do more harm than good towards succesful dough/bread.

That said, if you are comfortable with sprouting, you are half way there. The standard dMalt that I am aware of is from Barley, sprouted to just the 'chitted' stage. Rye is not unheard of, nor is just about any other grain that you can get to sprout. Just that Barley is apparently more potent with enzymes.

Chitted, being to the point at which you are just seeing the beginnings of the sprouting process at the growth tip. It is not truly 'sprouted' in the traditional sense, just chitted to the beginning stages. Why this is desired, I don't know, but would love to find out.

Then it is just a matter of dehydrating and grinding. The general guide line would be to dehydrate at a temp of 115F or less. If your oven can't be set to that low a temp, you might find just leaving the chitted grain spread out on a sheet pan in a cold oven with the light on might get you near that temp.

Or you could just put a fan up to the sheet pan of grain and even at room temp (with occasional stirring), probably be successful. A nice sunny day can work as well.

After that, it is just a matter of grinding it up. A typical coffee grinder should do fine. From there, keep it in the fridge and use sparingly.

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about the consistency from batch to batch so much as your consistency in the process. But we're not building a watch here. It's just malt.

If any of this is glaringly wrong, I'm sure someone with more expertise will chime in, but this is what works for me.

dobie

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

only thing I can think to add is avoid direct sunlight, the babes tend to turn green.  :)

dobie's picture
dobie

Mini

Thanks for the insight.

I've only used a sunny day to dehydrate fruits and things, so I was assuming it would be OK for malted grain. I should have known better than to make that assumption.

I appreciate the heads up.

dobie

katyajini's picture
katyajini

dobie, thank you so much for the info.  This is quite interesting.  Everyone of the few methods for preparing diastatic malt that I have read say to let the sprout grow till the emerging root is as long as the grain-berry.  You mention the word chitted which I had never heard before and say to let the grain grow only till the sprout is emerging. If I had to choose a method rationally, I think yours is the most correct one. From the little I know of the biology/biochemistry of germination, when the root tip is emerging the amylase enzymes should be peaking.  At this point most of the stored starches are being converted to sugars.  Every point hereafter other enzymes are being made and the released sugars are consumed for growth/energy and cellulose production. This is probably the best time to stop the grains growing if you want to collect amylase.  And the proportion of amylase to other enzymes should be much much higher. But of course 8-12 hours later there should be plenty still there. And then again my rational could be so off.

Another thing is that when the seeds are such 'babes' :) :), that they are just pushing the root tip, the enzymes that make chlorophyll may not be there yet and they wont turn green so fast even in the sun. I have seen some greening, barely, of the root in bright light but not so early in the process.

There is just about the faintest sunlight and 20F for highs these days where I am.  So I am going to use my oven or buy a dehydrator. 

And wow, you really got better flavor with your homemade diastatic malt.

Thank you so much everyone for graciously sharing your time, experience and knowledge! 

 

dobie's picture
dobie

katyajini,

Thanks back at you. I learned a lot from your post.

I too have heard of the more developed sprouting for dMalt. In fact, that is the most common recommendation thru out the internet. The first few times I made it, that is how I did.

I've only just heard of 'to the chitted stage' here on the forum and there are some very experienced malters and sprouters on TFL, so I went with their expertise and have not been dissapointed.

The last batch I made this past spring, I made with Rye berries as (for some unknown reason) I couldn't get my hands on any Barley that wasn't pearled, and as you know, that just won't sprout.

I just found some proper Barley last weekend, so I'm no longer limited, but I must say, the Rye dMalt seems to be very effective. I'm not doing any real comparative tests, just that it works.

I usually do the longer sprouts for throwing a handful into a dough, which works very well. You have inspired me to reignite sprouts back into my diet. They are so easy, so good and so good for you. I don't know how they got tossed to the wayside, but I'm gonna bring them back in.

Thanks for the better understanding of the science behind it all.

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

barley so it is't so good for making malt but I do use it to make red non diastatic malt for the scald in so many 100% rye breads.  The diastatic power of wheat is equal to barley so you can use that to make malt for bread t.  You defiantly want to make sure no light hits the sprouts.  They will start to turn green and go bitter at about 3 days and you need 4-5 days to make malt and get the sprout (not the 3 rootlets that are the first to emerge and chit) at least the length of the seed itself.

For malted or sprouted flour,you only want the seeds to chit - less than 24 hours or so.  You don;t make bread with malt.  You want to have enough enzymes to make enough sugar to feed the wee beasties and leave enough residual to brown the crust.  You want malt to make beer where you every bit of starch converted to sugar as fast as possible so you can make as much alcohol a fast as possible   The goals of beer and bread making are quite different so they require a different process.

Happy sprouting, malting, baking and brewing.

katyajini's picture
katyajini

dabrownman, thank you! if I understand what you are saying, when the root is as long as the berry, most of the starch has been converted to sugar and thats why its the best time to make diastatic malt for yeast breads? 

dobie, do not want to sound preachy...please do go back to sprouts, they really are good no matter how you look at it.  More than enzymes, vitamins, chlorophyll, fiber, they have extraordinarily high concentrations of growth factors not that different from our own.  As we grow older or more tired these growth factors at some level have a rejuvenating effect on our entire system.  But its not a quick fix.  It is important to have a little (one or two fistfuls) everyday.   Regularity is key.  Just like meditation and exercise.  They work!  (Forgive me if this is too much information?)

Thank you for your help!

 

dobie's picture
dobie

katyagini

Please know I appreciate the information by everyone being put forth. None of it is too preachy or too anything other than perhaps a bit complex for me to quickly understand. But after all, that is the point of this forum and its main attraction as far as I'm concerned.

I told you the experts would probably chime in and I'm glad they have.

Here I was, just plodding along in my own simple little life, with my own simple little understanding of what is obviously a much more complex issue than I ever imagined. So, I'm learning as fast as I can.

I generally play in the shallow end of the pool on TFL as I'm not much of an expert on any of it. I will welcome newbies to the forum and offer what little advice I feel comfortable sharing without feeding misinformation if possible. Apparently, my little treatice on dMalt (while simplistic and less than well realized), at least was fairly accurate.

dabrownman, Mini Oven, and baybakin (as well as some others) are people who's posts I will follow no matter what the subject as there is always good information to be had. I now add you to the list.

I'm just a little dazed and confused at the moment, but it will all become clear shortly, I'm sure. It'll just take me a little work to get there.

Thanks again,

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

There are  2 ends of the seed.  At one end the 3 rootlets will chit first withing 24 hours for most grain seeds.  When these just break the skin surface ( chit)  This is when you would gry them to make sprouted flour.  IF you continue to sprout, at the other end of the seed, the shoot that will be come the leaves of the plant will emerge.  After 4-5 days of sprouting, when this shoot gets to be the length of the seed, this is when you stop sprouting and dry the seed to make malt.

dobie's picture
dobie

dbm

Thank you very much for that.

It is very clear and I will change my ways accordingly.

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

The sprout comes out of teh same end as the 3 rootlets not the other end.  It is much thicker and there is only one of them

here are the pictures. the first 3 are malted and the last on a chit for sprouted flour

 Chitted grain - perfect for Sprouted Flour above and finished white and red malts below

katyajini's picture
katyajini

Thank you so much dabrownman. I understand now.  For all my sprouting I have never done monocots or grains.  Only peas, beans, legumes, alfalfa, sunflower seeds......  Now I am remembering a little what I had learned about them.  It will be fun...thanks for sharing your pictures!

dobie talk about shallow end of the pool...:)  I am sitting on the kiddie steps.  Its great pool.

This was a great conversation. Thank you!

 

katyajini's picture
katyajini

Actually, I have another question.  If I were to do a long autolyse, say the overnight ones, would I still want to use diastatic malt?  Would the diastic malt then be redundant or still contribute? And would I add it along with the yeast and salt or when starting the autolyse?

Thank you!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

and for most white flours the malt has already been added at the mill.  If you have flour that isn't malted or mill your own and can sift it to at least straight flour (72% extraction) something no home miller can really do, then you might want to add 1/2 of 1% white malt.

It is whole grains that you might want to do a longer autolyse but no malt needed and white flour where it might be need in rare instances only require short autolyses to begin with.

Long autolyses with extra malt that is not needed caused other problems -  it makes for too much sugar that competes with the flour in the mix for the water, can retard yeast and, if too much residual sugar is left over you end up with a gummy wet crumb - even when baked to 210 F.    Red malt is a flavor enhancer and coloring agent so it can go in any bread at any time.

White malt is hardy ever wanted or needed in most home baked breads.  I do like to use it in tangzhong and other scalds, especially baked ones, where the sugars are converted for a very small portion of the dough flour and the remaining starches are gelatinized and then the temperature is taken up high enough to denature the diastastic properties of the malt before it hits the dough mix or autolyse.

Happy baking 

katyajini's picture
katyajini

 Thank you again dabrownman! I am trying to understand the nomenclature. So is either red or white malt diastatic malt? Which is diastatic? Or what did I miss?

suave's picture
suave
dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

The onlyy difference is that the red is heated to the point of denaturing the enzymes and also to brown it when the white is only dehydrated at 105 F or so to keep the enzymes active and ready to go.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Diastatic is an adjective.  This means the substance contains Diastase, a sugar which is under the larger group name Amylase.  Malt is by its making, diastatic, therefore calling it "dmalt" is redundant.  

When heated, roasted, etc. it becomes "non-diastatic."   It should be labeled so but unfortunately this is not always the case.  So... when guessing, one guideline is to look at the colour.   The darker the colour, the more you can be convinced that the enzyme activity has been compromised or blocked yet the sugars remain so it is sweet regardless of colour. 

dobie's picture
dobie

Yes Mini

dMalt is redundant in name but the reason I refer to it as such is to make clear the distinction to it and non-dMalt. When not decribed as such, confusion often reigns.

dobie

katyajini's picture
katyajini

thank you Mini, that essentially clarifies it for me!  And thank you too dabrownman!  :)

katyajini's picture
katyajini

While this conversation was going on my oven of many, many years just died. Just would not heat anymore. It was a very simple oven but I had learned to cook so much with it and prepared so many mean meals for my family and friends, God, I felt sad.

Now I have a new oven and after I brought it home I realize it has a dehydrator function. And one can choose the temp of dehydration between 100-175F, with convection.  Well that's nifty.  A good dehydrator on Amazon was upwards of $200...

I guess making diastatic malt got a lot easier.

Just sharing!