Commerical Oven Suggestions
I am currently a pastry chef for a pretty big name in food (meaning, corporate name) and I am considering starting a whole sale business in bread baking. A combination of rustic loaves, baguettes, pan loafs as well as rolls, buns and that's just the start. Viennoiserie and other pastries to follow. Of course, the ultimate goal would be retail or food truck, etc, etc.
So, my only experience with deck ovens are the fairly adequate Revent models I used to use at Panera Bread (hey, we all had to start somewhere). I also baked bread in a BOHEMOTH, 8 door, Italian made oven that was clearly much older than me. May it rest in peace. Word on the street is that the pilot went out and it blew up. I'm actually trying to find out if its salvageable/rebuildable.
So, if I am to spend 20 to 40k (my ball park estimate based on nothing) on an oven, I don't want to have to do it again, in the future. I would like to be able to grow with it. Not have to replace it after I outgrow it. Currently estimates are that if I start this, I will be baking 90 to 120 loaves (pan and rustics) as well as many baguettes, on a daily basis.
Whats hot? (no pun). Gas? Electric? WOOD? I am capable and open to all kinds of ideas. New or used. What is a good mid to large sized commercial piece?
k so, where Im at here in the land of Aus, wood fired is the trendy and traditional way to go providing those lovely masterful crusts and rustic hearth loaves and doubling for fantastic pizza if you feel inclined... Beautiful, yes and romantic etc. A lot, like really, a lot of hard work, yes and logistics with getting, cutting wood etc Lovely if you can manage it :) Not so great for viennoiserie perhaps or dainty treats...
Gas Im not sure about, though I have heard that its a bit of a bummer with the steam side of things, dont quote me on that
I can tell you that we bought a 2 deck electric second hand Aus made oven previously used for pies. we paid 4000 for it and had stone hearths put in both decks and live steam fitted for around 4000 all in all it ended up around 10,000. We make free form sourdough bread @ 15 loaves per deck, by the time you tip them, score, bake, get them out, and get the next batch in its around 40mins with about 30 in the oven -- point being, we can do about 100 loaves comfortably, the 2 of us. Not sure how that compares to other people but it works for us. And we do croissants and scrolls and pizza etc, no problem.
Ive also heard that some convection models come with a permanently open vent, which is no good for bread.
If electric is a viable choice, i would choose it over gas. As far as wood fired goes, I would only go that route if I was setting up in a rural area with a reasonable priced wood source. Town or city based commercial wood oven setups often lead to smoke complaints, big big hassles.
My personel choice for deck ovens, is the German made Miwe condo line, for bread I would go with the 17cm deck height. these are independent modular ovens, one can keep on stacking more units on top as business requires. Miwes cost more than many other ovens, I think they are worth it. I would look around for a stack that is 3 or 5 years old.
cheers
daniel
Hi, I see you suggested the 17cm height for bread. I'm looking at a deck oven currently for bread too and have the choice between 18 and 24cm heights. Can you explain which would be better for bread or is it just for versatility to be higher? thanks!
Hello
I think that 24cm decks are more common in America, some like the option of being able to bake pullman and open pan bread , this is not where deck ovens shine though. A lower deck 17/18 cm range is much better siuted for artisan breads and the lower height is still good for buns and flatbreads. For a better bake, I'd go low.
cheers
great thanks very much for the suggestions!
As Daniel said, Miwe condo line is good. I bake on a stack of three Miwe electric ovens. I am by myself and put out about the production you are talking about 5 days a week...I can comfortably fit 6 loaves per deck allowing for enough air space to get a good bake. All in all that leaves me with 18 loaves per oven load. Fairly modest but manageable. Bongard makes excellent ovens as well...This is all assuming you have as much money to spend as you want though. These brands are not cheap.
I came very close to buying two of these 40x60 decks. The 80X60 decks are more common, that's what i've been holding out for.
About three months ago, a stack of four, 80x60 decks came up for sale, super clean, only two years old, could have been mine for about 13 grand (Swiss Franc) ....i only need and have the juice for two though.
Yeah, I had nothing to do with the purchase of the ovens...personally I feel it is better to have more oven than you need. In order to bake everything I'm having to load and unload the ovens 6 or 7 times in a day and the programs take approximately an hour...I bake, mix, and do the make up for about 80-100 loaves a day as well as 60-140 burger buns, sometimes more sometime less depending on our wholesale account, time of the year, farmers mkts etc. Also doing the dough make up for baguettes and focaccia and the pastry team finishes that stuff off in the morning...It's a solid 10 hour day by myself most days between mixing, baking, shaping, packaging and cleaning.
To the person that started the thread -- doing the amount of production you're talking about will most likely take 2 people and you said you wanted to start with wholesale...This is a tough business proposition in my opinion. You make a lot more money off direct to customer sales.
Thank you for the great responses everyone. "Fueledbycoffee", yes, its definitely a slower start than full retail. In actuality, I'm allowing the wholesale accounts to serve as the things that get my foot in the door. I can easily imagine having some small retail opportunities lined up too. Long term, I want a coffee/pastry shop, breakfast/lunch shop or food truck. Of course, all the baked goods are the base for these retail spaces. However, starting wholesale means I get to keep that kitchen space away from the expensive retail square footage. Basically turning my bakery into a commissary for any retail spaces.
There will be 3 of us starting out. 2 of 3 working each day with me marketing/selling on my off time.
One thing about the ovens.... Maybe I am living in denial right now. I would like to be able to bake 30 to 50 loaves per bake. If wholesale, I will have to have product loaded up by 7am. I really don't want to start baking at 2am. lol
One other thing.... If anyone has any business advice, please share. I can run a bakery/pastry program really well. Owning and operating a business is new for me. I feel its my logical next step however.
So the decks I'm working on are super small. As Daniel was saying he was trying to purchase the 80x60 decks...these I assume would fit 12(?) (3 deeps, 4 wide?) loaves per deck. So a stack of 3 could do 36 loaves and a stack of 4 could do 48....
There is almost certainly an oven that will meet your needs. I've worked on ovens that can literally bake thousands of loaves at a time. So it's out there, just got to find the right one for your budget and needs.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BONGARD-COMMERICAL-OVEN-/331118158360?hash=item4d182e2218:g:g3IAAOSw-7RVEbLx
Thoughts??
I know a lot of people prefer electric but I'm sure you can make some killer bread in that oven if it all works properly. That's a pretty serious oven for a start up...That has about a 215 loaf capacity/ 170 baguette...You would be firing that oven up and heating the entire mass essentially for one bake. That might be severe over kill.
This is an example of what I'm baking off in the MIWE. Honestly, I think you should start with something smaller than what you posted. If you start with an oven that would take 4-6 rounds of baking for your target production there is still plenty of room to expand. If you can bake off approx. 40-50 loaves per round I think you would be more than satisfied.
After further examination, the large Gas oven is the same I used to use at another bakery. It was wonderful. The steam injection was not too consistent. so we supplemented, on some of the decks, with a garden sprayer. Of course, the loader was always in disrepair. To make matters worse, the top deck was the best and was really too tall for manually loading so I have some great burn scars. Anyway.
As far as size, I worry about too many bakes. Our first customer could be 100 plus loaves, everyday. I assume we would be delivering by 7 or 8am. I'm used to 4am start times but any earlier than that might be pushing it. lol
On the flip side, I do like the idea of electric and modular designs. Being able to grow, one deck at a time, sounds great.
I also just looked at some of my production notes and what I am reminded of is that many of the breads were properly proofed at different intervals anyway. Chances are, I would not be able to load up the entire bake at once anyway.
More so... I also think that my old bakery used to leave this oven ALWAYS on because it took 4 or 5 hours to get up to proper temp. From cold. Of course, I don't think the equipment was well maintained either.
Obviously baguettes and products that stale quickly you want coming out of the oven and heading to the customer right away, but something like a 2 pound sour loaf could be baked the night before and sent to your customer in the morning. Running a split shift where the people they day before bake off some stuff that is going out the next day may be your solution. Assuming you're going in at 4am, you would need 45 minutes to get ovens to temp and still your doughs would all have to be retarded in final shape if you wanted to bake right away. Certainly there are baguette doughs where this process works but you also have to be very fastidious about taking care of your couches with this process (not a real big issue but it is something you need to be aware of, the black mold can come quickly if you are not properly drying your couches and cleaning them). Larger loaves also need time to cool before you stack and pack them otherwise you risk the crust collapsing. I don't know what time you intend to deliver but you have to figure oven pre heat time, bake time, and cooling time before you're able to deliver. Probably better to bake these the night before...I wouldn't worry about too many bakes unless your terribly bad at multi tasking and structuring production. I can bake off 18 loaves at a time and can push out 100 a day and do the dough make up for another 100 the next day by myself. There are so many ways to modify your production schedule and play with dough order and restructure production style that there ought to be a good solution. Being worried about baking 4-6 rounds of product seems really strange to me. Also, thinking that you're going to go in at 4am and be able to deliver bread by 7 or 8 seems unrealistic. I don't know what kind of artisan bread production you are used to but I can't think of any place that runs on that type of schedule. I think the more normal shift would be going in late in the evening 9-11 at night and working through the night to deliver fresh bread in the morning...That's the old standard anyway.
But also you're talking in potential, the customer could be ordering 100 loaves etc. It doesn't seem like you have any firm commitments. I feel like this is the difficult thing with starting wholesale to start. With a store front you build your name and then wholesale accounts follow. You're really going to have to be pushy to get into wholesale markets without a name behind you and you'll be fighting for smaller margins. True, you don't have to pay for retail space but that is offset by how much less your margins are in the wholesale game; A baguette might sell for 3.50 retail but only 2 when it comes to wholesale. If I'm a restaurant I want to put my money behind someone I know can get me consistent product day in and day out and I would be very leery of a backing a start up. Speculation is worth a grain of salt in when it comes to sales. A lot of things could happen in theory. You have to be able to bring realistic representations of what you intend to provide to potential customers and get them to buy in and you have to be able to back it up when it comes time to deliver. Having a retail outlet tells the wholesale customers that there is the infrastructure in place. It gives them confidence in you. If you're stocking your retail outlet every day then they know you can stock them every day too.
"FBC", thank you, again, for the response. When I baked bread before, I had about 30 to 40 2lb loaves and 40 to 100 baguettes and yes, with a 4am start time, it was all very close with a 7:30 - 8:00 open. We would make bag dough with ice water and get them shaped and retard within 2 hours and yes, couche maintenance was a bear but a necessity.
My partner and I are AWESOME at planning production schedules and I have no doubt we would figure this one out but I often wondered about the 11pm or midnight bake for the rustic loaves. I wasn't sure if that was considered in "poor taste" to deliver as "fresh bread".
As far as retail vs wholesale, I am actively planning different business models to accommodate whatever opportunities come my way. I'm lucky to live in a large city where good food is wanted badly but there are very few artisan bakers (pastry or bread) and I have made a good name for myself. One of my partners has done even more than I, in the bread arena and this is how we've managed a contact within a potential buyer. If we start wholesale, it will be under the guise of quickly doing something retail within the first year. I'm leaning towards wholesale, only slightly, because it just seems a little less daunting of a task. Again, in this small market, even doing wholesale and some small farmers markets, etc, I think we can create a buzz. Maybe do some pop up events and partnerships with other kitchens, etc.
If I go full retail, from the start, I'm certain it will be café, pastry and fresh morning baguettes with rustics fresh in the afternoon. I already have a partner in a coffee roaster and a couple of properties I'm looking into.
Personally I don't think that is in poor taste at all to send out bread that was baked at 10-12 the night before. A well fermented sourdough has plenty of shelf life and not too many places expect bread that has literally just come from the oven. If you're sending out yeasted rustic loaves you might consider trying to bake those off in the morning simply because those will not have the same shelf life as the sourdough versions...I guess I didn't fully understand your baguette comment, you would mix those right away with ice water, ferment, and shape them and retard them till the next morning?
I suppose the market does really change things too. I know where I'm currently at it would be tough to start as a wholesaler. Perhaps when I lived in Chicago it would have been easier (but at the same time there was a lot more competition there). I don't know where your market is and won't pretend to know more about it than you. I'm a baker after all, not a proper business man.
I also do some coffee roasting at home (have a Behemoth 1 lbs. capacity drum roaster) so big thumbs up to fresh roasted coffee.
Hey propaganda,
I just closed my bakery and thus am selling a like new MIWE Condo. Check out my posting. WE loved this oven and i think it would be ideal for you.
Here is the listing
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/45002/sale-miwe-condo
Hey propaganda,
I just closed my bakery and thus am selling a like new MIWE Condo. Check out my posting. WE loved this oven and i think it would be ideal for you.
Here is the listing
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/45002/sale-miwe-condo
FBC
Yes. I think we would start baguette mixing around 11am to 1pm, If I remember correctly, we would autolyse for 30 minutes, fully mix, bulk ferment for 30 min, fold and give it another 30 min. We would give it one last fold, tension and bench for 30 to 45 min, divide and preshape (rounds). Rest them for a bit, final shape and retard immediately.
I assume that a "proper" way would be to skip the ice and control water temp based on ambient, follow the same schedule but just room temp proof and bake immediately? There was only two of us baking and we just didn't want to both work a night shift. The alternative was to both work separate shifts but then we would always be alone.
We also used levain and poolish as well as fresh yeast in the final dough. Maybe the levain ( as a replacement to more yeast) slowed fermentation down? It took us awhile to get it right. We opened up our retarder a couple times to some pretty dead baguettes. For the most part, we used to make some of the best bags I ever tasted. Lots of open crumb, cracker crusts and just a beautiful aroma and taste. We always used 50% whole wheat flour in our levain so it had just a touch of nuttiness too.
I'm in Kansas City and there is 2 huge commercial bread makers churning out truck loads of substandard product. One used to be great about 20 years ago but it continued to grow and grow. There has been one upstart, who is growing and would most likely be our main competition. I'm a little nervous about them. They make a great product.
That's why I continue to go back to the retail model. I have some clients that are wanting to retire and they are selling their entire bakeries equipment. Including a 12 pan, Reed rotating oven, a Blodget convection, a 60qt, All stainless body Hobart, 2 sheeters, proofers, large butcher block, lots of stainless tables, etc, etc. I think I can get all of this for a VERY reasonable price. Of course, not a deck oven. So pan loaves only but I think that would be enough to start a retail breakfast/lunch bakery.
Gotcha, nothing wrong with that baguette schedule in theory. Ice may not be necessary if you can control your dough temp using water...You could still retard the product without using ice in the mix.
Personally I'd stay away from the ferris wheel oven. From my experience they do not retain heat really well, take up a lot of floor space, and do not retain steam well (if steam is even an option in the first place). Sure, you can do pan loaves and buns in them and they are good for cake baking but they will not produce bread of the same quality as a deck oven. with 2-3 guys depending on the day of the week, a mixer that could handle 50-75 pound flour batches, a 30 pc divider rounder, 2 door proofer, a rack oven and a rotating oven, I used to produce 300-500 country loaves and 300-500 dozen dinner rolls on a daily basis and do all the packaging. All the country loaves were coming out of the rotating oven and 100-150 dozen of the dinner rolls were coming out of the rotating as well. The rack oven was pretty much exclusively for dealing with the large number of dinner rolls. I have a feeling you would end up wanting an oven that can produce better bread...and a 60qt Hobart is nice but would you find yourself wishing you had a spiral down the road? I know I would. You want to buy equipment you're going to be happy with down the road so you're not wanting to replace it right away...
Oh, Sorry FBC, right now, I am considering all kinds of business models. The Wholesale bread was based on the opportunity that might come my way. Or might not. At the end of the day, I really want a retail space. Breakfast/lunch. Morning bake of croissant and other pastry as well as baguettes. Afternoon bake of all the rustic loaves. Soups, sandwiches, house made chartcuterie, sausages and salads. I would still need at least one deck oven for the minimum amount of hearth loaves I would retail. However, I could hold off on getting a large one, until the wholesaling takes off. Kind of in the model you outlined early. Establish your name, then sell the product that people have come to know and expect. It all sounds very daunting to me but I have started the business plan for it and I am meeting with a small business coach to put me on a path.
The rotating oven works great for all pastry, and some of the breads I would roll out.