FWSY vs Tartine
Hi Everyone.. Happy New Year..
As some of you know, I've baked through the entire Forkish FWSY book this year. I started in April and over weekends worked my way through the 19 different loaves with varying success. For the most part it's been a successful and educational journey. I've even baked the four different pizza dough's during the holidays for a pizza dough bake-off comparison (the poolish and levain recipes were our favorite depending on how sweet/sour you like your crust!). I've yet to post on the pizza's.. but here's that experience: https://flourwatersaltyeast.wordpress.com/
Then this Christmas I was given the first Tartine bread book. I made it yesterday. I over baked the bread and gave it a burnt bottom - 'my bad'. But I have to tell you, I was shocked at how good the bread was. I was able to get great rise and gluten development. It was sweeter than I would have thought from a levain based bread (really no sour flavour). Oven spring was fantastic. And while it was clearly a bit burnt, I was stunned at how good the bread was. In fact, I think it might be a better bread than most of the FWSY bakes - but that's not absolutely true as the FWSY levain breads were wonderfully complex in ways this bread wasn't. That said, I was still blown away by the bread and thinking "how can this be?". Now, admittedly I've never tasted one of Roberton's breads, so as far as I know my loaf was completely off what his tartine bread is suppose to taste like.
As to the recipe, I only deviated from the book in that I placed the dough in the fridge for a slow bulk fermentation after almost four hours of half-hour folds (but unshaped). after about 15 hours in the fridge I continued as per the recipe. I baked it after about three hours of final proof (and it could have likely gone in the oven after only two hours based on how it held it's shape when I flipped it out of my basket. I baked 30 minutes lid on and 18 lid off. I walked away from the oven and thought 18 minutes would be fine as many of my FWSY bakes were between 20 and 30 minutes lid off - lesson learned. But then again, my oven wouldn't turn off until I flipped the circuit breaker so I could have an oven issue going on too. My next bake will tell if my oven is getting tired of the high temperature bread bakes.
So here's my question: is it just me, or is the tartine loaf as spectacular a bread as I'm thinking? For those of you that have baked both FWSY and Tartine - thoughts on comparison?
Thanks, and bake happy!
I too have both books, and while I haven't baked every one of Forkish's formulas, I've baked several. They have been great breads but I keep going back to Robertson's basic country bread. It's the standard against which I judge all of my other SD bakes. In fact I could think of no better way to spend the first day of 2016 than baking that bread!
I haven't yet enjoyed the genuine article at Tartine but I have had wonderful naturally leavened breads in Italy and France and I can honestly say they are no better.
Well done, and Happy New Year
Thanks for the feedback. I had to muster reserves of will power just to walk way and stop eating the bread! Bake happy.. !
I have both books and have baked from them to the point where now know their techniques by heart. The only difference is Robertson's aggressive levain development and associated rapid dough proofing. Moving everything along at a rapid pace with warmer temperatures just makes for less acid formation in the doughs and a sweeter loaf. You can get that too from Forkish's formulas with warm temperatures.
I have both books and have baked from them to the point where I now know their techniques by heart. The only difference is Robertson's aggressive levain development and associated rapid dough proofing. Moving everything along at a rapid pace with warmer temperatures just makes for less acid formation in the doughs and a sweeter loaf. You can get that too from Forkish's formulas with warm temperatures.
Of course, that makes sense as I read your post. I used my oven with light on as my proofing box and was able to get the temp to just about 80 degrees. While the FWSY warm spot levain was closest to his bread's "sweetness" (when using levain), this was better. Even when using instant dry yeast recipes in FWSY, this was better. But then again I'm partial to sweeter over sour loaves. Thanks for the feedback!
I'm not sure what temp you mean by warmer, but if it is over 76F or so, you are creating more sour to my knowledge and experience.
If I want a sour 'sourdough' I'll proof it over 76F and up to 93F. If I want sweeter, then between 69-76F. Cooler than that also results in more sour, but not nearly as aggressively.
Again, just my experience.
dobie
Dobie.. I'm sure you know more about this than I do. While I don't know the right numbers, my experience with FWSY when developing a warm spot levain was to feed every 12 hours and make sure the temp was in the low 80s. That resulted in a sweeter levain. With Tartin, the temp while folding every half hour had to be around 80 and that's what I kept it at with my oven light on (and some hot water). The result was a dough that didn't have the slightest sour taste. My experience has been to neglect feedings if I wanted more sour. If I've wanted sweeter then feed more frequently and do so around a temp of 80.. I'm sure someone knows the science on this, but that's been my rule of thumb on sour vs sweet. bake happy..
bread1965
What ever works, works.
I agree that the more frequently fed and the fresher fed (not stored long in the fridge, if at all), the sweeter and less sour the levain (or starter).
I don't think the difference between 76 and 80, even the low 80F's is going to be that significant. But I'm pretty sure 69-76F wouldn't hurt regarding sweet.
Conversely, if you wanted sour, just proof the levain and then the dough in the upper 80s and lower 90Fs and I'm quite confident it will help you get there.
If I'm wrong, I'm sure somebody will chime in (I've been wrong before and will be again, I'm sure).
Here's a fun dare tho. Put away the books for a bit and just make up a recipe on your own, of your own. In fact, double dare, no measuring cups or spoons or scales to weigh ingredients and no machinery or thermometers involved. Just your hands and maybe a bowl. Any and everything else is allowed. Just you, the ingredients and the environment/oven.
It's a challange I like to take every now and then just to see where I'm at and you might find it fun. I know I do. But you must be prepared to fail as well as succeed.
I was going to delete this part about the dare as my better judgement tells me I might have gone overboard. But better judgement doesn't always win. I do mean it as a friendly gesture tho.
dobie
OK. I'm going to give it a try. I'm traveling this next week but will bake something in the weeks ahead and post it..
Thanks for the suggestion..
Bake happy..
OK. I'm going to give it a try. I'm traveling this next week but will bake something in the weeks ahead and post it..
Thanks for the suggestion..
Bake happy..
bread1965
I'm glad you like the idea. It's a lot of fun. I will wait a week (to sync with you) and I will do the same. In fact, I've already got an idea in mind that will be a challenge to me, for sure.
I haven't yet read any of Robertson'sTartine books nor Bertinet's Crust (nor anything else by him) but I will go to the Library soon and take a few out.
I've read a lot of Hamelman, Reinhart and many others (as well as FWSY), but I never worked thru the recipes like some of you guys are doing, but I think it's a good idea.
I usually take out four or five books out at once and crack them open one by one over the course of a month or so and read thru all the intructional and process material first and scan thru the recipes.
I will eventually pick out one or two recipes from each to try out (usually the simpler stuff that will employ the techniques exposed). But it soon becomes a hodge podge of comparisons of techiques floating around in my head (as they lie open in a stack that I cross-reference) and could easily take a year or two for me to exhaust the possibilities thought of.
Anyway, I'm due for such a session (altho this forum serves a very similar purpose) and Tartine and Crust will lead the way. I think Reinhart has one new to me on Sprouted Grain as well. This is the perfect time of year for such a project.
I'm looking forward to it all, and whatever you may come up with on a dare.
dobie
Bread1965
I'm a little later than I intended, but I have started my 'no recipe' recipe. Just to take the risk a little further (and possibly, further humiliate myself), I will start a new thread on this bread attempt.
Hope you are considering the same (you could tack on to my thread if you are going to do it).
dobie
The Tartine style loaves I've baked have had a much more complex flavor than the FWSY loaves. In fact I've tried recipes from many different sources and have abandoned all but Robertson's for wild yeast bread. I tweak the timing/temperature to suit the day's schedule. And recently I added a touch, 5% or so, of rye flour for additional flavor boost. This is the New Year's Day loaf. 60% bread flour, 35% WW, and 5% rye.
I love the picture, and also the addition of rye. Great bake!
bake happy....
Are you baking both in Dutch ovens? Are they any different when baked on stones? I got FWSY for Christmas; have been baking from Peter Reinhart's books and Richard Bertinet's "Crust" mostly until now, with a few of my own loaves as well, and bake mostly on the granite stones. However, after reading Forkish's method I bought a couple of small cast iron pots and used them for the first time the other day. They turned out very nice though almost burned on the bottom. That could be because I baked them in my smaller oven which has an exposed element on the bottom. Need to move the rack up just a touch or put a pan on the bottom rack under the iron pots.
FF
All my bread has been baked in dutch ovens. I'm mixed - on one hand, it works so why change a method that delivers a great result; on the other, every loaf looks the same (round!). I thought I'd start to use my pizza stone this year! FWSY is a great book in many ways. Just use your eye rather than his bulk fermentation times. Almost every time he's listed has been longer than I've actually required. Have a great time! Bake happy!
You did not burn the bread, though you did burn the bottom. You can get an even darker bake without blackening the bottom. The trick for me is not to put my pans on the bottom of the oven, and instead make sure it is closer to the middle rack position. (I go one below to give me "top room" so I dont whack the broiler with the combo cooker).
And, perhaps even more important -- I have never burned the bottom of the loaf since I started taking the top of the cooker off and nesting the shallow pan holding the loaf into the larger pan. This creates an insulating pocket that makes it very difficult to get a blackened bottom in my oven.
I do bake from both books and love the bread I get from either process. I note that you did 30 minute turns for four hours instead of two hours. Why was that? I usually do the 4 turns over 2 hours, a 5th turn at the third hour and shape after the fourth.
I placed the DO on the middle rack in my oven, not the lower for the very reason you mentioned - but still had the bottom burnt. You're right thought, the bread itself was fine and other than the bottom (and a bit the top) wouldn't have otherwise thought it burnt from the crumb.
As to the time and folds, I honestly don't remember looking back. Either I mis-typed in my email, or I mis-read the instruction. I think it was the later and I folded thinking I should for that length.. but it's a bit of a blur as to which it was.
I'll try your pan trick too - thank you! Bake happy..
i must have read the recipe 20 times before baking. I still messed it up the first time. Had to write it out to make it simpler to follow. Not it is all by memory.
FSWY was easier to follow, not just because it was my second book but because it was far more direct without including so many alternatives in the master recipe.
Try lowering the oven heat or preheat the pan at a lower temp to raise eventually with the oven spring. :)
minutes after the lid comes off and the skin crust has set enough to handle. I just finish baking on the rack or the stone - No more burnt bottoms
Never heard of someone doing that.. good advice.. Thanks!
I sprinkle coarse cornmeal the bottom of the DO, then transfer the dough using parchment paper. The cornmeal lifts the parchment paper off the bottom a bit and so it never burns.
Will give this a try!
I use Lodge "Combo Cookers" for Tartine and Forkish breads. These have a shallow "lid," which is like a fry pan and is where the loaf sits when you bake with it. The other half of the cooker is deep and becomes the cover, when baking bread.
I pre-heat the deep cover but not the shallow part. When the loaves are ready to bake, I line the bottom of the "lids" with parchment. I sprinkle the loaves (still in their proofing baskets) with semolina before turning them into the lids. Then I take out the deep parts, cover the loaves, load in the oven and bake.
I get nicely cooked loaf bottoms but no burned ones.
And less risk of burning my hands this way too. I load the cookers into the oven using mitts and hot pads.
Happy baking!
David
That's the first time I've heard of not heating the bottom of a DO or stone, etc.. It makes sense, I'll get one and give it a try! Bake happy..
Interesting thread. I just checked FWSY out from the library after learning to bake using the Tartine book. I didn't think I'd like it much as I'm kind of a levain purist & Forkish's book, like most, is mostly commercial yeast but Forkish really illuminates some finer points that's left out by Robertson in that 1st book. Haven't baked Forkish's recipes yet but am curious to try the twice-fed sweet levain recipe (sans yeast), a method that Forkish explicitly states came from Robertson but that's omitted from the Tartine book.
And no, the bread from Tartine Bakery tastes very little like the bread from the book. Mind, my wife actually prefers the loaf from the book to the country loaf from the bakery but they're pretty far away from each other. I've got another post detailing my reaction but in summary, the Tartine bakery country loaf has a very prominent fermentation flavor & is much more sour than I expected, with a strong, lingering aftertaste that I don't enjoy.
The ancient porridge loaf from the bakery however is very nice & strongly influencing how I'm thinking about future bakes.
Forkish is presenting a variety of approaches, all based on the same principles. If you don't want to use commercial yeast, don't. And, FWIW, I have made some of the formulas that call for commercial yeast without the yeast. Not a problem in my usually warm kitchen.
Regarding the "twice fed levain:" Actually, this did not originate with Robertson. This is used in the San Francisco Baking Institute sourdough workshop ("Artisan II") as a demonstration of how to make a real French Pain au Levain with minimal to no acetic acid presence.
I'm not sure what you mean by a "very prominent fermentation flavor" in the BCM. Do you mean it is "yeasty?" Sour? I find the flavor very well-balenced.
David
I haven't found a conversion table yet for commercial yeast to leaven & haven't had time to experiment. Nor am I as drawn to the yeast-driven recipes or pastries / sweet breads.
As for the twice fed levain, I should have been more precise with my wording. Forkish says he got the idea from Robertson ... I didn't mean to imply Robertson invented it. I'm assuming there's very few techniques actually invented these days but I'm a neophyte & know very little about the history of baking.
I don't know what BCM stands for but as for the country loaf from Tartine Bakery, I posted my original thoughts here. At first, I would describe it as overwhelmingly sour but after some thoughtful responses on the post & continual tasting of the bread, I realized that maybe sour was too general & imprecise. Maybe yeasty is the right word, I'm not sure ... I would describe the loaf's flavor as perfumed ... the leaven flavor dominating the crumb & leaving a strong aftertaste that I had to brush my teeth to be rid of.
Caveat, I've only been baking since Dec & realize that I'm a neophyte & may not have a refined palette as yet.
dvorakdream,
Let me throw this in real quick. I know what you mean about the flavor lingering. Hours later I can still taste it on my tongue.
Not to say that I don't like it, but I know what you mean. I have often wondered if it was only me or if I were making it up in my mind, but since you mention it, I have noticed the same thing.
dobie
I've actually baked each bread in the FWSY book and while I completely understand your 'pure levain' approach, I must admit it was helpful for a novice baker (then, but less so now I hope) to think through the process and understand the evolution of moving from a 100% commercial yeast to 100% levain bake across different dough development techniques. The process of working through those recipes in the book helped me appreciate the influence of working with one form of yeast over the other - and the differences that result from not just the type of yeast but how the dough was developed over the fermentation process. I don't know that I'm a purist, but understand the purity of baking with pure levain that you've created from a starter you've 'built from scratch'. For me, it's been a springboard to other breads.... thinking of the twice fed sweet levain recipe, it does create a good (non-sour loaf) and would encourage you to give it a try.
As to the Tartine country loaf, I haven't had one from the bakery yet, but many comments about it that I've read on this board and other sites has made the same comment about being "too sour". I'm not a sour-dough (literally) bread guy. And it actually was something I was initially expecting, until I read the recipe. Informed from how sweet the twice fed sweet levain recipe bread turned out, and more so by the sweet-spot levain recipe (both) from FWSY, I was expecting a "sweeter" loaf after I read the Tartine recipe. And that's exactly what I ended up with. I think the Tartine loaf is one of my favourites now. I would encourage you to bake the sweet spot levain bread as a better proxy of the Tartine bread - but not to say it's nearly as good IMHO.
Bake happy.
Yes, you're reviews on the advanced levain FWSY recipes were very helpful, thanks for creating that blog.
I only got into baking because of the romance & alleged health benefits of sourdough. In my city, there's not a bakery that makes sourdough (only a sandwich shop). So I just don't have much interest in the other aspects of baking, like using commercial yeast ... .though I do use a poolish + leaven for English muffins. I also tried Reinart's pain l'ancienne recipe a few times but wasn't too impressed (perhaps it doesn't turn out right if you do a half batch?). All that to say I don't view being levain purist as "better" ... it just suits my artistic sensibilities better. And I'm also a bit of a masochist so it suited me to start learning baking w/ sourdough.
I do love the Tartine loaf (from the book). I'm making the twice-fed FWSY recipe today ... excited to see what I discover!
Thanks again!
Making a half batch of dough shouldn't impact the outcome, so it could just be that you're not a fan of that bread or something else is going on there. As to the twice-fed - let us know/see how it goes!
I've had Tartine bread from the bakery, and Iv'e have been baking Tartine loaves for over two years.
At least in my experience, the bread from the bakery has very mild sourness, if at all. It's very, very good.
My wife says that she can't tell my bread from the bakery bread, but I think she is being very kind ;). In reality, I think the bakery bread has a more chewy crust and more open crumb, but the best home-made loaf comes close to the bakery loaf.
As far as pizza dough is concerned, Ken Forkish's FWSY is superb. I also use his recipes for yeasted Saturday morning and overnight bread.
Alok
We where in San Francisco this past July and ate at a number of bakeries including Tartine and The Mill, I thought both of their breads where pretty mild when compared to Boudin or ACME. We went to Tartine for lunch and where impressed by the non-ending line and the bakeries low key appearance, there was no signage outside the building to indicate that we had arrived at the Mecca for bread. The deserts and lunch options at Tartine where also first class, if I lived nearby and had the time to stand in a line multiple times a week I know I would.
Gerhard
Hi Everyone.. I thought i should try Tartine again. I didn't overnight the loaves in the fridge. I followed the recipe by the book other than flour. After about 2.5 hours of a final rise I baked the loaves. I didn't let them stay much longer mostly because they had risen considerably in my baskets and while the finger dent test was still "springy" I didn't want to over-proof. The flour modification I made was to use 10% whole rye than whole wheat.
I made sure to bake them less this time. 20 minutes lid on and 21 lid off. I used parchment at the bottom of my DO and the bottom was nicely cooked, not burnt. The oven spring was remarkable. This was by far the best rise I've ever had from a bread as measured by the size of my DO.
In every respect it's been remarkable. But here's the disappointment - the taste. It just wasn't that interesting. I think the longer cold fermentation I did in the first bake of Tartine was better. But it was also full of larger holes - less uniform crumb. This crumb was much more uniform and better that way. So I'm wondering, if I did this again, with a cold fermentation and wanted to minimize the holes, how about this: overnight in the mixing bowl, shape the next morning into two boules and "punch them down" in the process to reduce big holes, let them rise for an hour or so and then bake? Or would this be pushing the boundary of over-proofed? Thoughts?
As to my starter, it hadn't been fed for a while (maybe a month), so Friday night I fed it 1:2:2 and used it Saturday morning to make the bread (it was very active) and baked Saturday night. Could it be my starter? I want to say no, because the rise was so great. And while I know that the warm 80 degree first fermentation increases the yeast sweetness of the dough. But still I'm lost as to how to make this more interesting without bigger holes.
All advice welcome. Thanks!! Bake happy..
The modification is in the text prior to the recipe. He suggests changing the flour combination to 70% white, 20% wholewheat and 10% rye. We really like the flavour this produces.
I have the largest size LeCruset oval dutch oven I've had for years. I do loaves from a long oval banneton in it. There are less expensive ones available.
Regarding Ken vs Chad, or any other recipe, take what works for you from either of them and make your own style bread.