November 23, 2015 - 2:00pm
Please help me nail this panettone receipe before Christmas!
Dear TFL bakers
Having been baking bread for about a year I've recently moved into sourdough with mixed success, but it is improving.
I've been working mainly with James Morton's 'Brilliant Bread' and I want to make panettone for my friends as Christmas gifts. I had one go which was disastrous; despite what I thought was good gluten development it was really wet and I couldn't shape it, and it didn't bake through at the temperature/time stated.
Here is the receipe: http://thehappyfoodie.co.uk/recipes/proper-panettone
Has anyone made this? What pitfalls do you see? Is anyone willing to have a go at this at the same time as me to compare notes?
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or one of Michael's (mwilson) recipes from his blog here, This recipe looks perfectly good to me though. Panettone is struggle of unrequited love, It just takes practice, getting the gluten developed and the dough shaped properly Don't give up - just keep at it - it is all worth it in the end when you get it right. Make sure to bake it to 96 C in the middle.
Happy panettone baking - if there is such a thing
Pannetone is complicated. one holiday, I made a rich brioche recipe and added the fruit and flavor of pannetone (flower flavor, dried cherries,cranberries orange and lemon peel). I made them in pannetone papers for the proper shape. They were very delicious, well received and much easier to make. Of course they were not quite as feathery as pannetone but still delicious.
Holidats are busy times.I opted for easier that year.
Our story is similar. I've been actively baking bread (almost) weekly since the spring. But working through FWSY. I have two breads to bake over the next two weeks and I'll have finished the book - ex the pizza's that I'll get to. I too was thinking I should make a panettone this year. I have no experience, but will give it a try. We can do it over the same weekend if you'd like and compare notes. Let me know!
That's great, bread1965! My Kitchen Aid is off for repairs so I may have to wait a little while. As I recall the first stage isn't too difficult to do by hand, so I'll start building my starter up and find out when the KA will be ready.
Matt
I ordered some panettone paper forms from king arthur's site with some other stuff.. I'll let you know when it's delivered!
Should we give this a try on the weekend? What do you think.. how's the kitchen aid mixer repair going?
The mixer is a nightmare, they have cancelled the collection several times. I lose patience. I think let's do it this weekend, and I'll just do it by hand. My starter needs more regular feeding.
<p>The mixer is a nightmare, they have cancelled the collection several times. I lose patience. I think let's do it this weekend, and I'll just do it by hand. My starter needs more regular feeding. </p>
GBOF - I'm going to try and work backwards to bake sometime on Sunday. I'm also going to suggest we think about using a stiff white warm spot levain - this will create a sweeter starter and (I think) result in a nicer tasting panettone. I can't imagine liking a 'sour' panettone! I looked at the recipe you posted above, and then looked at the recipe dabrownman mentioned above. If you're in agreement, let's bake your recipe above. But I would encourage you to read wildyeast's recipe as well - http://www.wildyeastblog.com/panettone-recipe/ It provides some good insight into the process. Let me know if you have any questions. Otherwise, Have fun, and lets see how it goes!
GBOF - I spent more time looking at the two recipes.. I think we should use the timeline on the wild yeast blog. It looks like better overall instructions as to how to develop the dough, etc. But I'm going to use the ingredients suggested on the happie foodie blog as you suggest.. I'll look at the differences later or tomorrow, but I think they're pretty close. I think it will be how we follow the instructions that will affect our results! As mentioned above, I'm going to use a warm spot stiffer levain.. Here is what I'm going to do, and I' have you consider the same.. we need only 60 grams of levain to make a single panettone, so I'm going to work up to that build.
Friday 8-9am 1st feed: 5 grams of my existing starter; 25 grams white bread flour; 17.5 grams water at 85 degrees.
Friday 5-6pm 2nd feed: 5 grams from above; 25 grams white bread flour; 17.5 grams water at 85 degrees.
Saturday 8-9am 3rd freed: 5 grams from above; 25 grams white bread flour; 17.5 grams water at 85 degrees.
Saturday 5pm 4th feed: 6.3 grams from above; 31.6 grams white bread flour; 22.1 grams water at 85 degrees. This final feed will give you the 60 grams needed for the recipe on the foodie site.
Each feeding has to be placed in a warm spot that's at least over 80 degrees (ideally between 85 - 90) ambient temperature. I'm putting mine just above my water heater. But you could try in the oven with the light on or something like that. You don't want to go much over 90 degrees. You also want to tightly cover the bowl that you have it in with cling wrap or the like - otherwise it will dry out and you'll lose water weight through evaporation. Between feeds it will double at least and become a thick white web of levain when mixed.
I know I'm going to be discarding some levain after the 1st, 2nd and 3rd feeds. but the amounts are so small I don't know how to do this without creating extra levain. What I'll do is put the "discard" in my regular levain jar and then back in the fridge.
As to the mix schedule: I'm going to have my last levain feed at about 5pm on Saturday night (starting Friday morning), and at 10pm on Saturday night I'm going to mix the first part of the dough and let it sit on the counter covered overnight (or in a cool spot so the room isn't warmer than about 71 degrees). Then Sunday morning I'm going to see if the dough has tripled (staring at 10pm the night before gives me some wiggle room if my room is too hot) and I can start the second mix earlier. If it all goes to plan, I'll do the second mix at some point between 8 - 10am Sunday morning and continue following the recipe.
That's all for now. Let me know what you think. Also, reading the wild yeast blog - maybe you should borrow someone's mixer or (?).. it might be too much to mix by hand to develop the gluten. Happy to hear any comments from anyone else that's read this far, if they have any suggestions to improve the process.
bake happy.. bread1965!
Hi bread1965
Been a manic week at work and I completely overlooked that I'm going my grandparents this weekend so won't be able to bake, unless I take all my gear with me. Which I may do... But probably will only start on Sunday afternoon.
I read all your suggestions, which sound good. I'll make some adjustments to what order I add everything and use a 50% hydration starter, but basically stick to James' receipe. If I change too many things at once I risk not learning what the key factors that make it work are. Still no mixer. But I often like mixing by hand to get a better feel for the gluten development, and unless the dough is very sticky I find I'm normally faster than the machine.
I'll post pictures as I go.
My 50% starter is much thicker than I was expecting. I guess I'm just used to working all the time with a 100% starter.
Hi GBOF.. it is what it is, as an old friend of mine use to say.. I fed my starter this morning, just did again when I got home.. will keep on track to bake Sunday afternoon. Will post pictures too.. Enjoy the experience.. if it's not this weekend, don't stress.... maybe borrow the grandparent's mixer?! Most of all.. bake happy!
We'll I mixed the panettone first dough last night after 11pm, having been developing my stiff warm spot starter for two days. BUT, when I mixed the ingredients using your 'happy foodie' recipe I realized I had do mix it for a while before adding the butter. I added everything at once. So I went to the wild yeast site to see how they do it. Different recipe but no mixing on the first dough. So I decided to use the happy foodie recipe values but follow the wild yeast method. Unfortunately this morning I don't have much development of the dough.. it's maybe about 1.5x the size, not three yet. Lets see how it goes by noon today. But I'm not sure if this is going to work. I'll let you know. Tell me how you're doing! ? if you are!.. bake happy!
Well, GBOF.. I flopped.. I fed my starter for two days in a warm spot to great a sweeter version of itself..
It was thick, bubbly and smelled nice..
Then I mixed the ingredients per the happy foodie blog recipe, but as mentioned above didn't pay attention and ended up having to follow the wild yeast method of making the pannettone.. This morning, not to much rise/activity and maybe it doubled in size but definitely not tripped.. not sure why.. I think my starter was plenty strong..
I waited until 1:30 today to give it a try.. again, using foodie measurements but wild yeast method.. no gluten development.. it's been mixing for 30 minutes.. time to do a clean up.. ! Ugh.. maybe I'll try next weekend again..
Hi bread1965
Sorry that I've not replied to anything. I have been preoccupied with work, Christmas shopping and the cake. I also had some starter problems. I was forced into an attempt by necessity in the end; it's so close to Christmas that I had to do it right away and had to get it right or my friends weren't getting any presents this year!
The problems that you had are exactly what I had in my previous attempts. Once you reach the stage 2 dough it is much too liquid.
Although initially the 50% hydration starter seemed happy and bubbly, after a few days of feeds it seemed to become less and less frothy. I didn't take a portion of my starter to make this, I converted the whole thing. I won't be making that mistake again. Once I'd converted it back to a 100% hydration starter and tried to feed it twice daily with a very high refreshment ratio for a few days I was happy to start on Sunday afternoon.
I kept to James' recipe on Happy Foodie, with one exception (mentioned later). I also tripled the quantities because I wanted to make 3. I mixed the stage 1 ingredients except the butter and kneaded it by hand for nearly 20min until windowpaning well (flash ruined the translucency). It was quite a hard yet sticky dough.
I then added the butter, and here it is partly mixed in:
And when fully mixed I was able to quickly shape it on the bench without any oil or flour:
I left it 24 hours in a cupboard with the hot water tank. It's probably only about 21C in there. Our flat isn't that warm. By that time it was looking like this:
I then added the stage 2 ingredients as in the recipe: first the flour and sugar which made it quite dry, and then the liquids and finally the egg yolks. At that point it looked like a total mess, so thin that a beater barely left a train through it. If it is possible to knead a liquid I didn't have any success!
I did try kneading/beating this for perhaps 10min but didn't seem to be getting anywhere, so rather than give up I decided to add more flour as I figured I had nothing to lose- this is where I differed from the recipe. In total I added 200g extra flour (66g per pannetone), and although it was loose like a focaccia or ciabatta, it was workable. I kneaded this by hand for 15-20min I think, I lost track of time. It passed the windowpane test well by the time I'd finished. By this point it was really late and rather than shape the individual breads I put the dough back in the bowl, covered it and put it on a cold windowsill to slowly rest.
In the morning I divided and shaped the dough, put them in the cases, into the cupboard they went as I dashed out the door to work. They were about a quarter of the way up the side, just touching the sides. On returning from work this evening they were looking more like it:
I scored them, decorated with blanched almonds and added the knobs of butter.
Into an oven pre-heated to 200C fan with a cup of water at the back of the oven, and immediately turned down to 160C fan. Baked for an hour and they've just come out and are cooling upside down. I'll post a picture later.
Sorry all the photos came out on their side. I didn't upload them like that.
Anyway, the baking and cooling were unremarkable. I thought a dusting of icing sugar would be a nice touch.
I'm so pleased with how they've turned out. It's the culmination of a very busy year in bread. Time for some typically restrained British celebration.
Hi GBOF - Happy New Year! I was just online posting about Tartine bread and remembered our pannetone project. I wondered if you'd ever gotten around to making one! I'm glad I did. I hadn't received an email notification of your reply for some reason. I'll have to look into this - so excuse the reply in getting back to you!
Great job!! They looked amazing! How did they taste? I didn't make a second bake attempt after my flop! The Christmas rush came and that was that. I put the paper molds I bought away, and will try this again next year and post to this message thread! I'm glad you had success! Well done!
bake happy!
Hi bread1965
Sorry for the very long delay; I have 2 other hobbies and a busy profession and I put bread onto the back burner for a while so stopped checking the forum.
Unfortunately I never got to have so much as a crumb as these pannetone because I gave them all away as gifts. People told me they were delicious, but then again they would say that wouldn't they? Actually, they're good friends and I can probably trust them to be straight with me. One of them sent me a photo at my request, and the crumb looked about right. If I find that photo I will post it, but I think it may have been on my old phone.
Same again this Christmas?