The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Sour dough timingsk

PETER PEARCE's picture
PETER PEARCE

Sour dough timingsk

Could  I call upon your experience please?

I recently made a sourdough starter. The next step is  to make some bread. The recipes that I have call for 5 hours for the first prove and up to 13 hours for the second prove. The minimum is 9 hours for the second prove. My problem is that I'm not around that long. Unless I can change these times somehow I will be making the bread at 2 in the morning and stupid times like that. I start work at 7.30 and don't get home till 6 in the evening. So my question is: How do some of your guys get around this and could I prove in the fridge to make the times fit in with my schedule ?

i know that proving times are important because I've had breads that fall flat and being there to ensure the optimum proving time is a necessity so, can anyone offer some advice please?

KathyF's picture
KathyF

13 hours for the second proofing seems extraordinarily long if it is done at room temperature. That can't be right since I would think you would end up with a deflated puddle. What is the recipe?

For timing, I would use the refrigerator. No reason why you couldn't do that.

vasiliy's picture
vasiliy

My bulk (first) fermentation is typically from the evening until the next evening (in the fridge), about 20-24 hrs.  The second one is the same way.  So, after the first fermentation, I get the dough out of the fridge, let it warm up a little, shape, put in a proofing basket and it goes in to the fridge until the next evening when I get it out, let it warn up and bake.

drogon's picture
drogon

... to do it. That's one of the joys of bread making. (and a frustration!)

You should post us the recipe, or tell us which one you're using if its out of a book, etc.

Most of my sourdoughs are fermented overnight - so from about 9pm to about 5:30-6am, then they're cut, shaped and proofed for no more than 2 hours - into the oven, out and into the shop by 9am.

However that's just one way - the ferment/proof time is going to depend on how much starter you use in the dough mix - what sort of temperatures you keep it at and so on. The recipe you're using may well be that long as it produces some particular effect that the author is after, however it does seem very long to me and I'd be looking to make sure the proof is done in a very cool place.

Maybe you need a different recipe...

-Gordon

 

PETER PEARCE's picture
PETER PEARCE

Here is the recipe that I have been thinking of working to which KathyF asked for in order to provide some help.

It comes from Paul Hollywoods book "How to Bake" Im not sure which part of the world you come from Kathy, but in the UK Paul is a well known Baker and celebrity. I am not doubting his recipe as he is very good at what he does but it does not really fit in with my work schedule and although I don't really like the taste of sour dough bread I wanted to expand my baking skills a little. So, here is the recipe :

Remember this should make two loaves  of cheddar and apple sourdough so the quantities are quite large

500grams of sourdough starter

750 grams of strong white flour

15grams of salt

350 to 450 Ml of water

200 grams of cheddar cheese

3 desert apples cored and roughly chopped

5 hours for the first prove and 13 hours for the second. There is no mention of a fridge. There are a number of recipes in this book all with a similar quantitys of flour although there may be the addition of rye flour or some other and or different fruits and nuts etc but they all seem to have this rather lengthy proving time. I kind of like vasiliys comment about leaving them in the fridge for a similar period, that would suit me very well but do you think it would work with this recipe? 

drogon's picture
drogon

Well I'm in the UK, however I'm not that sure that Paul Hollywood is a great sourdough man himself. Far too much starter in that recipe for my likings. Either that or his starters are weak and feeble...

Its often difficult to fit making sourdough into a working day schedule though - you might want to consider this a weekend bread..

Friday night - take 30g of your starter from the jar you keep in the fridge. Put this in a bowl and add 60g of flour and 60g of water. Give it a good mix and leave it covered in a coolish place overnight. (but not the fridge)

Sat. morning. Mix this 150g of bubbly starter into 500g of flour and 285g of warm water and 8g salt. (You can use 400g white and 100g wholemeal if you like) once its all mixed in, add in the apple and cheese (chop cheese into little cubes, don't grate - only 1 apple though + 100g cheese - this is just one loaf). Leave covered in a warm place (airing cupboard). Then over the next 4-5 hours gently tip it out (if it's in a bowl) and do some stretch and fold operations, or light kneads. Do this once an hour. After 4-5 hours, a final stretch and fold, shape it into a boulle, put it on a baking sheet (use silicone or parchment paper) and leave covered to proof. Alternatively use a banneton or a colander with a linen tea towel and lots of flour. This should increase in size in under 2 hours - tip out of the banneton/bowl, slash the top if you can, then into a screaming hot oven (250°C) with a cup of water thrown into a tray in the bottom. turn heat down to 210 after 10 minutes and leave for another 25.

I'm maybe being a bit simplistic here, but that's essentially what I do for a "weekend special" for home use. (I bake 5 days a week to supply small shops, etc)

However, you'll have crusty sourdough for tea and fantastic toast for Sunday.

If you like, finely chop an onion and lightly fry it and use that rather than an apple... Savoury cheese & onion bread - yum :)

Don't grate the cheese - chop it into little cubes - it's much better that way and use as strong a cheddar as you can get. It's flavour will diminish during cooking.

-Gordon

PETER PEARCE's picture
PETER PEARCE

Hi Gordon Thanks for the tips. Just for my education what is the reason for the bit I am doing on Fri eve? The other point is that I have not put my starter in the fridge its just in the kitchen at room temperature. Will that cause problems?

Thanks again

drogon's picture
drogon

yet another bit of sourdough methodology where there's a million different ways to do it.

If your starter lives out of the fridge, then just take 150g from it and use it directly on sat. morning. I sometimes use my starters directly from the fridge, but they're used and topped-up daily, so I know they're really active. If you make one or 2 loaves a week and keep the jar in the fridge then giving it a boost by taking some out a few hours before, giving it a feed and leaving it until it's nice and bubbly can be advantageous.

A typical day for me would see me take the starter from the fridge at about 3pm, adding flour & water to it and leaving it until 8pm when I'll start to make up the dough - I do it that way because I can't keep enough starter in the fridge to keep it all going. (e.g. tonight I'll need about 2.5Kg of starter for the breads I'm making tomorrow morning)

-Gordon

KathyF's picture
KathyF

I have heard of Paul Hollywood! They have been showing "The Great British Bake Off" here in California. Love the show. In my experience, the bulk rise could take 5 hours in cool weather, though the second rise usually takes less time, not more. I have run across one of his sourdough recipes online before here. He specifies 5 hours for the first rise and 4-8 hours for the second rise, which still seems a tad long to me, but maybe his starter is not particularly active. There are so many variables such as in how active you starter is, temperature, ingredients, that these timings will vary from one time to the next.

I would follow Gordon's advice. He knows what he is talking about!

PETER PEARCE's picture
PETER PEARCE

As im an infrequent user do you think I should leave it in the fridge and do the Friday night thing?

drogon's picture
drogon

personally I'm in-favour of keeping the starters in the fridge.

If you keep it on the bench, then it will require feeding - and that's fine, but it also means that you'll end up throwing away some starter every time you feed it. (or make pancakes with it, etc.)

However there are 1000001 ways to manage starters. See e.g. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/40918/no-muss-no-fuss-starter for a different way that might make life easier for you too.

Or keep about 400g in the fridge and use it when needed.

This was my daily routine 7 months ago:

http://moorbakes.co.uk/sourdough-made-easy-part-1/

I'm now making 3x that a day so some things have changed, but the basic method is still the same.

-Gordon

 

PETER PEARCE's picture
PETER PEARCE

Gordon. Thanks for all the advice. I have a lot to read and work on. Im sure I will be able to find something that I can work with. Thanks for taking the time to respond and help.

Peter 

PETER PEARCE's picture
PETER PEARCE

As there has been some comment on the activity or strength of my starter, I thought I would give the recipe for that too. I hope I'm not going to incurr some copy write problems here but here is the starter recipe.

500 grams of strong bread flour

1 organic apple although I used one from my friends garden grated but not using the core but including the skin

360 ml of tepid water

mix all the above together and put it into a straight sided air tight container and leave for 3 days

after 3 days throw half of it away and add 250 grams of flour and 170 ml of water. Leave that for another 2 days.

There were some other points here to look for to tell that the starter was active and if it was, throw half of it away and add another 250 grams of flour and some water to return it to a wet sloppy mixture. So this is what I am using as my starter. I hope that helps.

peter

 

 

drogon's picture
drogon

I keep my wheat starter at 100% hydration - that's equal weights of flour to water. If using that starter then I'd be tempted to try making an overnight sponge (ie. what I suggested by taking 30g starter, add 50g/50g flour & water) and seeing what's happening in the morning. It should be bubbly/frothy.

-Gordon

ccsdg's picture
ccsdg

Perhaps someone more expert than me can analyse the maturity of this starter?  I was under the impression that a starter needed at the very least 7 if not 10 days (of daily feeding) to become mature.  Sounds like you've only given it one feed to maturity?  I'm also not sure how an apple would affect the speed of starter maturation.

KathyF's picture
KathyF

However, this sounds like one of Paul Hollywood's recipes for sourdough starter. Presumably it does work. I do find it interesting that he recommends feeding it at least every 3 days rather than the usual daily feeding.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

and it can be frustrating to fit it into a work week schedule.  The fridge is your friend  and makes for a better tasting SD bread too.  You kind of have to do things backward during the week as opposed to the weekend.

Y would try feeding the starter and letting it sit a 68 F place all day while at work.  Then mix the dough and develop the gluten when you get home then, without a bulk ferment on the counter,  just chuck it into the fridge and let in bulk ferment there till either the next morning or the following evening after work.  The do a quick pre-shape cold and then a final shape 1 hour later, Then immediately into a proofing basket or tin, cover in a plastic bag and into the fridge again until you get home that night or the next morning depending on what you did for the bulk ferment.

Then all you have to do is let it finish final proofing on the counter, if it didn't proof completely in the fridge and bake it off in the evening.  SD is very forgiving in the fridge for bulk and final proof and either can be 12 - 24 hours no worries. 

I've been watching the great British bake off here in AZ too on PBS.  Amazing the variety of stuff they make each week.  Paul seems to be an old school guy when it comes to baking but maybe that is just what the show is about.  His 25% pre-fermented flour is quite a bit for SD baking and his 65% hydration very low for strong flour but I hear that the flour in the UK, if not from Canada, can be very weak and not able to soak up much water.  I would be at 10-15% pre=fermented flour depending on of it was summer or winter and 75% hydration here in Arizona  where I grind my own flour and it is very thirsty.  

Who is the older lady in the show that is a judge with Paul?

drogon's picture
drogon

is the older woman... She's been doing cookery on (British) TV for decades and decades. over 150 books, etc. Brought out of retirement and into a new career for Bake-Off. She's a good home cook and she doesn't like to say otherwise. The good thing about her books is that the recipes always work too...

Hollywood is a bit old-school IMO but he does seem to enjoy his stuff.

The flour I normally use has 12% protein - I've tried up to 70% with it, but it's like working ciabatta. I do have some really strong Canadian Manitoba flour though and that's workable at 70% (just tried it with standard yeasted stuff so-far) I don't chase big glossy holed bread though - it's not that common here in the UK - yet.

-Gordon

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

"The good thing about her books is that the recipes always work"

Seconded.

I only have one book of cake recipes. This is the latest edition:

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

5 hours for 1st proof and 13 hours for the second??? On top of that you've got a lot of starter. The only thing I'd make out of this recipe is more starter. KIS. And by that I mean keep it simple. 

Typically 10-30% starter. 

First fermentation is till doubled (a few hours)

Final proofing (or second rise) till almost doubled (always quicker - about a couple of hours).

 

I have never come across timings as described in Paul Hollywoods recipe. Unless there is some fridge time. There is something im not understanding here. Odd recipe!

Just did a quick search for a nice recipe (sitting in the airport right now and if I had more time I'd type one out for you) and this looks like a good one http://www.theclevercarrot.com/2014/01/sourdough-bread-a-beginners-guide/ 

Here is what I do...

Night before build my starter before bed. Next morning it is ready. 

Make the dough, do stretch and folds then let rest for remainder of bulk fermentation : anything from 4-6 hours typically depending on how much starter I have used. 

Then I'll shape it and final proof till ready : about 2 hours ish depending on various factors. 

If I can't see the final proofing to the end and/or wish to develop more flavour then I'll shape it, leave it out at room temperature for about 20min - 30min then I'll refrigerate it (in a plastic bag) till the next morning or when I'm ready to bake it. 

PETER PEARCE's picture
PETER PEARCE

i don't really know what I have done wrong but this was a total disaster. I took 30 grams of my starter out of the fridge on Friday night.. Added 60 grams of flour and 60 grams of water and mixed it all together. I left it in the coolest room in the house. The next day ( today) I added 400 grams of strong white and 100 grams of wholemeal flour and 285 g of water and 8 grams of yeast. I mixed it all together.mit never really felt like normal loaves as I mixed and kneeded it. I put it all in a bowl covered it and left it in the airing cupboard. Each time I folded it and gave it a slight kneed it just got wetter and more sloppy. By the time I came to bake it it was like a cake mix. It would never have stayed in the shape is a loaf but more like a pan cake so I put it in a tin. It was the shape of a cake when it went in and the same when it came out. It's now in the bin. I don't understand what I have done wrong, but I'm very disapointed and don't know what to do next. From a complete amateurs point of view it just looked over proved. Has anyone got any ideas. Is it the starter? Have I proved for too long? Should I just forget sour dough and just stick to ordinary bread like plain white, baguettes and ciabatta?. all contributions gratefully received.

wolfetan44's picture
wolfetan44

8g of yeast and 30g of starter is far too much, for mine, I use 7g of starter, and that's it (per loaf). I then take the 7g and 60g whole wheat and 60g water leave it overnight, and then use it. No dry yeast, just that.

drogon's picture
drogon

You added 8g of yeast instead of 8g of salt... (Assuming you were following my guides above)

The extra yeast will make it go bonkers and no salt to retard the yeast (and do other "stuff") will let the yeasts go even more bonkers...

-Gordon

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

1:2:2 build for your starter which is fine. Night before at room temperature to be ready by morning. So far so good. 

 

Total starter is 150g @ 100% hydration

Flour is 500g

Water 285g

8g of salt

 

Final hydration is a respectable 63%

Sound recipe!

 

How long did you bulk ferment for?

PETER PEARCE's picture
PETER PEARCE

sorry that was a typing error. It was salt that I added not yeast.

drogon's picture
drogon

So the only thing I can think of is temperature.

I don't leave my doughs in an airing cupboard. They rest from about 9pm to about 6am in my kitchen which right now is at about 18°C.

I make these 5 days a week - although I usually make 2, 4 or 6 loaves worth at a time.

Sometimes the 6-loaves worth gets a bit lively:

However most of the time it's just fine.

Looks like I might have to make just one up with pictures..

-Gordon

drogon's picture
drogon

and took pictures and wrote a blog post about it.

 

Read it all here

Part 2 is here (but it's linked from part 1)

 

-Gordon

 

PETER PEARCE's picture
PETER PEARCE

i had a bit of trouble with this as I could not be around to fold at the right time. I guess the total bulk ferment was 8 hours I started the bread at 7.30 am and put the dough or should I say poured the dough into the bannaton about 3.30 pm. I managed to do a couple of folds up to about 10.30 but then I had to make an unexpected trip to the hospital. When I got back at just before 3.30 I finished the bulk ferment but I could tell it was a waste of time.. When I did the folds up to 10.30 it was a very wet dough and did not seem to firm up. Folding made it reduce in size so it was fermenting ok.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

I'm not entirely sure what's happening here but sounds like over fermented and it turned to starter. I think the next best step is to keep it simple and build from that. We're gonna go low hydration, some old fashioned kneading etc.

 

RECIPE:

500g bread flour

270g warm water

10g salt

150g starter @ 100% hydration

 

Starter Build Night Before: 30g Starter + 60g water + 60g bread flour

 

METHOD: (next morning)

1. In one bowl mix the 500g bread flour and 10g salt. This is your dry mixture.

2. In another bowl mix together the Starter and 270g warm water. This is your wet mixture. 

3. Add the dry mixture to the wet mixture and combine. Cover and leave to rest for 10 minutes. 

4. After 10 minutes knead the dough till full gluten formation (should take maximum 10 minutes) then cover and leave till doubled (about 4-6 hours).

5. Gently turn the dough out onto a lightly floured worktop. Don't deflate it completely but enough to knock the big bubbles out and to shape. Then shape the dough into your prepared banneton.

6. Final proof till almost doubled this time (place the banneton in a plastic bag so it doesn't dry out). About 2 hours but you've got to judge this well. 

7. Pre-heat the oven.

8. When ready turn the dough out onto prepared baking tray, score and bake. 

PETER PEARCE's picture
PETER PEARCE

ok I will give thi s a try. Are any of the ferment times in a fridge , cool room warm kitchen etc. The problem here  for me is the 4- 6 hours. I can't do that in the week as I am at work for 9-10 hours so it will have to be next weekend now. But I will give it a go and thanks for helpin!

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

And before bed do you have? 

PETER PEARCE's picture
PETER PEARCE

i get home at 6 and am in bed at about 10-10:30. I get up at 6 and go to work at about 7am. I can't bring the dough to work although I do have some large ovens there. Realistically it's going to have to be a weekend project unless I can slow down the ferment and do the hands on bit in the evening and ferment it all day in a fridge. 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

I think before incorporating a retard in the fridge it might be better to complete a sourdough bake from start to finish successfully. Once you have done that and you know the process, what to expect, etc... then start incorporating some fridge time.

But here is an idea if you wish to try again through the week. So up to you.

 

Mix the starter build before you go to work to be ready for when you come home. 

Make the dough when you get home, knead it and start the bulk fermentation then just before bed refrigerate it. 

Next evening take the dough out of the fridge, shape it into the banneton and final proof till ready.

My only concern is after being in the fridge it might take longer to final proof and you still run out of time. 

PETER PEARCE's picture
PETER PEARCE

i don't know if this is the start of problems but here is the story so far. I built my starter this morning just as described. I came home tonight made the wet and dry mixes. Put them together. Let it rest for 15 mins. Then started to knead. It was fairly wet and took me over 20 mins to start to build up some gluten but it never got to the stage where I could pick it up in a ball and put it in a bowl, as I lifted it, it stretched right down to the work surface. I put it in the bowl and covered it but my thought is that as the fermentation starts it will just get wetter and more sloppy,does that seem to be a correct assessment?

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

This is a very low hydration dough. Should be firm and very manageable. Let's get down to brass tax...

 

1. What flour are you using? 

2. How do you measure each of the ingredients? 

3. Same as 2 but talk us through measuring and building your starter

 

With bread flour and a low % hydration it should have taken you no longer then a few minutes kneading to develop the gluten and the dough should hold very well. There will be an explanation, we just have to find it. 

 

PETER PEARCE's picture
PETER PEARCE

i am using a strong white flour. I bought it from a supermarket And I have made many "normal" loaves with it . I measured 30 grams of starter 60 grams of strong white flour and 60 g of water. I left it all day and mixed wet and dry when I got home this evening. I use a digital scale and am very careful to take it to zero before any weights.

just a thought, if I use 275 g of water in the main mix and I have 60 g of water in the starter plus w hat I used to make the starter in the first place, don't I have in excess of 330g of water in total ?

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

500g bread flour

270g warm water

10g salt

150g starter @ 100% hydration

 

150g starter @ 100% hydration = 75g flour + 75g water

Water Total: 270g + 75g = 345g

Flour Total: 500g + 75g = 575g

Hydration: 345/575 = 0.6 x 100 = 60% hydration

 

60% hydration for a strong bread flour dough is in normal to low range and should be very manageable.

 

 

PETER PEARCE's picture
PETER PEARCE

yes of course, I'm forgetting about the flour I'm adding. However, I still have a dough that is not really manageable. Am I right in assuming that the rising agent which in this case is my starter, has no bearing on the build up of gluten? I suppose I'm asking if my starter is at fault. would it help to try another starter mix? Perhaps one that uses the natural bacteria that comes from the flour without the addition of apples or some other kind of fruit?

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Will have no bearing on the gluten unless you bulk ferment too long then it will break the gluten down and turn the dough to mush. When you first form the dough you should end up with a normal dough. From what you tell me it already is unmanageable. Yes... Fermentation will change the texture of the dough but kept within time limits it will not break down the gluten to such an extent you're describing. 

Now what fruit are you talking about? A starter should be water and flour! 

PETER PEARCE's picture
PETER PEARCE

yes I can see the wisdom of your first comment and it would be good sense to get the "feel of it first". So I think that should be the plan. Thanks

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

your starter in the fridge yet but what you could do in the meantime is give your starter some TLC. 

Most people who bake sourdough occasionally keep their starters in the fridge so as not to be slave to their starter. I too can only bake once a week so keep my starter in the fridge. But till you've done your first successful sourdough why not continue to give it regular feeds till you try it again and all has gone well? Then consider making it a home in the fridge. 

PETER PEARCE's picture
PETER PEARCE

i am keeping the starter in the fridge and have done for about a week. Do I have to feed it still. I will give your suggestion a try and see if I can make one in the week. If it all goes wrong I have only wasted a bit of flour. I may also gain some experience and who knows it may even work so, a win win situation. I will let you know how it goes. Thanks again

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Keep feeding the starter till the first successful bake so you know its good. Then when you know you have a viable starter then keep it in the fridge etc. I just thought that since you were thinking of pushing it off for one week then perhaps an extra week of TLC for your starter can only do good. Best of luck.