The Fresh Loaf

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Jello in bread?

Shai's picture
Shai

Jello in bread?

Hello all,

 

In attempt to make it easier to work high hydration dough, I had a thought about using gelatin and water in order to make jello cubes, and incorporate them into the kneaded dough. The idea is that unlike extra water, the jello will not have much adverse effect on the dough texture, stickiness and ease of handling. However, when baked, the gelatin will dissolve and allow the water to boil into steam and effectively increase the hydration, resulting in more aeration, raise and moistness.

 

I tried it once, reducing apx. 7% water from the dough and folding in 7% gel after kneading. However, I mistakenly made too weak of a gel, and it just melted into the dough. Shaping wasn't easier then usual (sticky as always...). The bread did bake as usual, with no ill effects.

 

I think I should try it again, replacing 15% of the water with much stronger jello.

 

I'd like too hear your opinion, am I wasting my time or does it make sense?

 

I thought it might also theoretically work in laminated dough, possibly replacing some of the butter?

Maverick's picture
Maverick

Gelatin is used in some dough conditioners (especially homemade ones). It might change the texture a bit. I know it is also used in gluten free bread to make the dough stretchier.

I don't see why you would need to make the cubes first. If you add the dry gelatin to the dough and let it sit long enough it should absorb some of the water by itself.

dobie's picture
dobie

Shai

That is a very interesting question.

Being a bit of a purist, I would rather tweak technique than ingredients when it comes to controlling dough to bake.

That being said, I have considered adding highly gelatinous, concentrated stock (chicken, mostly) into a dinner roll recipe (you know, Thanksgiving and all) and I am very interested in your experiments.

I agree with Maverick in that you probably don't need to 'cube' it first. Whether your gelatin is powder or sheet, I would think you could disolve it in some warm water that would be accounted for in your percentages.

Of course I'm just speculating here (having never done this), but I would expect the addition of gelatin to act to some degree as an oil or egg might, in terms of tenderness of bread and loosness of dough.

And the laminated dough thought is well worth exploring I think.

I look forward to your results.

dobie

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

bread is great,  here is one o my attempts

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/29899/multigrain-sd-yw-combo-chicken-stock-soaker-seeds

and you can eat it with this

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/29501/what-eat-rustic-french-counrty-sourdough-bread-etouffee

Just type chicken stock into the search box and you will get some ideas on what other Fresh Lofians have done with chicken stock

I think jello in bread is a great idea by the way.  Keep experimenting!

Shai's picture
Shai

Thank you both for repelling. I know gelatin is used in gluten free breads and have read that it has softening effects on the bread. This is the reason that I think adding cubed jello will give different (better?) result. The gelatin network will be already hydrated and formed, and when added late after kneading will have minimal effects on the dough formation, only doing it's thing when baked. Think of it as the difference between blending in nut flour versus mixing in chopped nuts.

dobie's picture
dobie

Shai

I do think this is a worthwhile persuit and I am very curious about the outcome.

But why do you make 'cubed jello' rather than other ways of adding it?

dobie

Shai's picture
Shai

Honestly, I don't. I just roughly break it and gently knead it into the dough, it will break further and disperse just fine. I said cubes just to make it easier to imagine :-) 

I believe the only important thing is to hydrate to make strong jello and not over knead it. 

andychrist's picture
andychrist

Wonder if you might be able to achieve the same desired result by rolling up finely grated apple into the dough before the final rise. Don't think you'd want to knead the dough with the apple mixed in, though it might be worth experimenting that way as well. Grated apple dissolves well into baked goods so that its presence is just about undetectable. 

Shai's picture
Shai

I fear that since apples won't release all moisture when cooked, you'll need plenty of them, also the moisture that left in the apples might escape over time and be undesirable...

BTW, apple flavored baguette sounds awesome, maybe for the next experiment? :-)

andychrist's picture
andychrist

when preparing quick breads or pastries is to drain the grated apples in a sieve while preparing the rest of the ingredients (saving the liquid for use elsewhere). That way they don't hold too much moisture, just enough extra to hydrate the dough for the final mix before filling the pan. The volcanoes I bake this way come out with magnificent domes and keep for weeks, they don't get soggy with age. Realize quick breads are not the same as kneaded loaves but would hazard that the apple would behave similarly in each. You probably wouldn't really notice its flavor in a bread, the amount added is not that significant. But yeast love it. :)

dobie's picture
dobie

Is the effect from apples due to it's high pectin content? If so, maybe using straight pectin (as used in jams and jellies) might be worth a thought.

Of course apples bring other nutrition as well as being 'less processed' than pectin and I have no idea what pectin would mean to yeast.

dobie

andychrist's picture
andychrist

what role the apple's pectin might have in the baking process. Also not all apples are created equal, the amount of moisture and pectin can vary greatly between varieties. Am guessing the sponge-like structure of the fruit's flesh holds the key; when subjected to high enough heat it will break down in a burst of steam. 

Personally, I wouldn't waste my time and money playing around with store-bought pectin in an otherwise regular bread recipe. It's enormously expensive nowadays and I live in apple country where it's pretty much pick-your-own, can easily afford to experiment with all the different varieties :)

dobie's picture
dobie

I agree andychrist

I would be much more interested in using grated apple than pectin. I was just thinking that the pectin in the apple might have some bearing on the effect.

Apples bring other nutritional components to the party as well as sugars for the yeast and moisture in the bake. Much preferable to pectin and I think I will be trying it soon (as well as chicken stock).

dobie

Shai's picture
Shai

I'm eager to see your results! I'm going to try baking with gelatin this weekend. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

note the warning labels on the gelatine that you are using.  Some cannot tolerate uncooked acids, others will fall apart if boiled.  Some have to be chilled to set.   Just check the trouble shooting section of your brand.   

Shai's picture
Shai

Got to bake the bread today. Made a whole wheat bread with coriander. 84% hydration. 63% whole wheat flour + 37% bread flour. 1/16 of the water (100g, 13%) were made into stiff jello and added toward the end of kneading. The jello broke into small uneven pieces and distributed quite evenly. Then the dough was cold fermented for apx 30 hours. The pieces of jello were visible scattered on the dough surface.

The dough was stiffer then usual at this hydration and not sticky as usual, but rather very tacky - adhering to the surface, yet being quite easy to separate from it (You might say that it is somewhat akin to how jello sticks to surface). 
It was quite nice to work with.

The loaf rose well. It browned slightly less then I'm used to, but that might be due to me using some new WW flour in the mix. 

When sliced, the crumb was nicely moist and a bit less open then usual, but not by much.
Texture was nice, moist and slightly chewy as usual, with good wheat flavor and the coriander flavor came out well.
The gelatin was not felt when eaten. The crumb wasn't sticky at all and was easily sliced thin.
The crust was slightly less thick then I'm used to in this recipe, but that haven't bothered me.

Over all, I'll say that it works quite well, but I think extra hydration is required in order to maintain the same results as without gelatin. I'd say one may replace about 10-15% of the water with 13-20% of jello.

Next time, I'm going to try an hearth loaf with around 90% hydration.
Happy baking :)

dobie's picture
dobie

Shai

Good to know. Sounds like it came out fine.

I am currently doing a quick pre-ferment on a hybrid yeasted corn bread (I'm just winging the recipe). Instead of 2 oz of butter and a egg, I will be adding 2 oz of very thickly gelatinized chicken stock (way stiffer than regular Jello. I'll let you know how it came out in 3-4 hours (I'm guessing).

dobie

Shai's picture
Shai

Sounds delicious :)

Are going to add the stock in a liquid state?

I'll be waiting to see the results.

dobie's picture
dobie

I put the strained, de-fatted and very concentrated stock in ice cube trays and freeze, then pop them out of the trays and into a baggie and into the freezer. They weigh about 1 oz each. I took two cubes and nuked them for a minute and they liquified. But I did not add any other liquid and actually I have not included the 2 oz in my hydration %.

I just put the dough in the oven. It behaved well for a 65% hydration corn bread (50% Bread flour and 50% corn from rough grit to masa). Like you said (for a low gluten, fairly wet, goopy dough), sticking during stretch and fold as well as shaping the loaf, was not a problem. I only used the smallest amount of bench flour and then only for the final tensioning.

The final proof was quicker than expected (45 minutes) and it held it's form well. I'm not saying the stock had anything to do with that, but I just don't know.

I think the real test in this loaf will be in how well the stock replaces the butter and egg regarding tenderness, crumb, and flavor. So far, so good (actually, better than expected).

dobie

 ps - it's almost out and looking very good. We'll see how it eats. Since it's not going to be eaten all at once (there is no party tonight), I will let it cool at least an hour or so. This is probably the toughest part of the whole process.

dobie's picture
dobie

Well, the results are in.

At final bake, internal temp was 205F.

It is very light with an airy, open crumb (perhaps a bit too much so, slightly over-proofed). The crumb is very moist and tender as I would expect had I used butter. Of course, there was no 'buttery' flavor, but a slight hint of meatiness. There was something there.

It browned well with a nice, thin, crisp crust after an hour cooling (to 137F). Considering that this bread was four hours from first mix to exiting the oven, it was thoroughly enjoyable.

I guess I would have to make the same bread swapping out the stock for butter, or perhaps without either, to really say anything definitive.

dobie

 

Shai's picture
Shai

I'm glad to hear your bread came out good. It's impressive that you managed to omit egg both eggs and butter and yet get a tall and tender result. Would you mind pointing to the original recipe as a reference. And if you get to try making it with butter and eggs instead, please do post a comparison. 

dobie's picture
dobie

There is no original recipe. I was making some chile and was about to make some quick cornbread (with baking powder) when the thought crossed my mind that I might have enough time to make a quick yeast corn bread and try out the 'gelatinized stock' idea. So I just put this together on the fly.

10 oz water

8 oz Bread flour

4 oz Masa corn flour

2 oz commercial stone ground corn flour (like white whole wheat in texture)

2 oz coarse corn grit

1 oz sourdough starter (100% hydration)

1 ts diastatic rye malt

1 TB molasses

1 ts Dry Active Yeast

0.4 oz salt

2 oz chicken stock concentrate

I mixed the water, Bread flour, coarse corn grit (wanted to get it hydrated), molasses, sourdough starter, yeast and Di rye malt in the KitchenAid bowl and put in a 100F oven for about an hour. By then, it was a very active sponge.

I then added the remaining ingredients and hooked with the KitchenAid at 2 for about three minutes. Then back into the 100F oven doing stretch and folds every 15 minutes for an hour. Then tensioned to a loaf and placed in a standard Pyrex loaf pan and back in the proofer. The final dough weighed 29.6 oz and I figure to be around 65% hydration.

In 45 minutes it had crested just over the pan top and went into a 525F oven that was turned down to 400F and baked for 12 minutes with steam. Then I rotated the pan and lowered temp to 375F, removed the steam and went to convection mode.

After 18 minutes I removed the loaf from the pan (187F internal) and finished bare on the oven rack for 8 minutes (to 205F internal). Cooled for an hour (to 137 internal) and ate. It wasn't chickeny tasting, but there was an underlying savory flavor to it.

Next time I think I would either eleminate the starter or boost the quantity (1 oz was too little too late, there was no sour flavor).

I also think I could cut the yeast to 1/2 or 3/4 ts as well (with perhaps a slightly longer rise).

It was less than 4 hours from first mix to out of the oven, which was my goal. I would definetly do this again. Come to think of it, it's 'non fat' bread (but you wouldn't know it).

I did take pics of the loaf and crumb and if I can figure out how to post them, I will.

dobie

Edo Bread's picture
Edo Bread

Of course if a bread like this was to be sold you would have to advise that it is no longer a vegetarian product. 

dobie's picture
dobie

Edo Bread

Obviously you're right that it is no longer vegetarian. I don't recall ever seeing commercial bread described as vegetarian, but I suppose it is implied. I'll look around on the shelves today when I to the store.

I would guess you would have to say the same about bread that uses plain old gelatin. I'm guessing it's all animal derived?

I want to retract my statement that there was no sour flavor. When eaten plain this morning (not clouded by chili) there was a definite, mild sour which surprised me. I don't think that 1 oz of starter by itself could result in that much sour flavor and I didn't think that with the short sponge ferment and rise there would be enough time for the starter beasties to grow much (but that is why I threw in the Di rye malt).

I also think I would cut the salt down to 0.3 oz.

dobie

dobie's picture
dobie

Edo

I did look in the bread isle and there were none that were described as 'vegetarian'. But as you said, I think it is implied that bread would be vegetarian. I only checked a few 'ingredient lists' for gelatin, but didn't find any so far.

Quick update on this Chicken Corn bread. The stub end is now a week old (kept at room temp and in plastic), and tho it is a little (slightly) less soft and hydrated, there is no sign of mold, etc. Still perfectly edible.

That surprises me. I thought the opposite would be true, that the stock would have encouraged mold and the like. Agar, agar and all that. But it did have that bit of sourdough starter in it, which might explain things.

dobie

dobie's picture
dobie

Just a quick update folks,

Here it is 12 days after the bake and the heel finally molded.

But I think it was my own damned fault. Clearing the counter yesterday, I moved it a little too close to a hot oven and when I moved it back (of course, inspecting for mold, of which there was none), I saw some condensation inside.

I knew immediatly it was doomed and sure enough, this morning, a little spot of green, right there.

dobie

gary.turner's picture
gary.turner

that it would also be non-kosher and not halal (haram). Gelatin also (usually) contains pork by-products.

cheers from a non-Jew, non-Muslim and non any religion with dietary restrictions who can eat any damned thing, :-P

gary

dobie's picture
dobie

Andy

That is one scary link.

Gary

I suppose you're right about pork in gelatin.

dobie