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effect of RTF on taste developed during retarding

sallam's picture
sallam

effect of RTF on taste developed during retarding

When preparing pizza dough, with 0.1% CY, I bulk ferment in fridge for 33 hours, then take it out and allow it to rest for 2 hours. This gives the dough a lovely moderate tangy taste.

But the bottom of the crust seems white and tastes raw, with no oven rise, which hints that the dough needs more yeast development, so I did a 33h bulk CF then 8h bulk RTF to allow the yeast to develop and make the dough double in volume. Oven rise was great, and crust bottom was brown, but the delicious tangy taste was gone!

This is weird, because when I used to leave the exact 33h cf dough out of the fridge for 2-4h only, the tangy taste was obvious. Does long fermentation in room temperature reduce or even wipe out the tangy taste that was developed during CF? does long RT yeast activity diminish the enzymes that was developed in the fridge when there was no yeast activity?

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

1. Leave out at room temperature for a couple of hours then bulk ferment in the fridge for however long and final proof at room temperature for less time

2. Change the recipe... "bread in 5 minutes a day" has a great recipe with a higher percentage of yeast. The dough is left out for 2 hours before refrigerating for up to 1 week. It can then be used for bread or pizza dough with just a 35-40min final proof after shaping. Very tasty dough!

3. It is puzzling that after 33h in the fridge it should need a further 8h for a good rise. CY i'm assuming is cake yeast or what we call Fresh Yeast in the UK. You generally will need more for a better rise. 0.1% sounds very little. Dried yeast would probably perform better at this percentage and you'd need 3x the amount for CY.

So just some ideas for you to try.

sallam's picture
sallam

I tried RT fermentation before CF, and the result was no tangy taste. Lactonasilli seems to work best when no active yeast is around.

I agree with you though, regarding my cy percentage being too little. I'll try 0.5% next time.

RoundhayBaker's picture
RoundhayBaker

..using a sourdough starter and halving the bulk ferment times for the dough. It's lactobacilli not conventional yeast that gives the tangy flavour. By doing these enormously long cold ferments you are, in effect, taking the first step towards creating an enormous starter, but one that's still a long way from being ready. However, your yeast most likely cannot last the distance and becomes exhausted which might explain why you get no oven rise.

sallam's picture
sallam

However, your yeast most likely cannot last the distance and becomes exhausted which might explain why you get no oven rise.

No, the yeast just needed more time to develop. In 8 hours it went up x2 in volume. I think I need to increase the yeast percentage. 

RoundhayBaker's picture
RoundhayBaker

..or maybe your abbreviations have different meanings to what I think they are. 

I'm afraid yeast does not continue developing dough indefinitely. You get limited number of rises with yeast. And a limited duration. Much less than forty-one hours you're using.  Unless you provide the conditions under which it can increase - regular feeding - yeast becomes exhausted. It can then no longer ferment which means you have no carbon dioxide to fill the gluten pockets which means the dough collapses. And that means you get no rise in the oven, just the dense flat bread you describe.

Could you can point me to an authority who says that sourness is created in a dough by yeast? I was taught lactobacilli do that job. Which is why sourdough starters are so important to getting a tangy taste. But I'd love to know more.

 

sallam's picture
sallam

There is a misunderstading here, due to my use of appreciations, apologies. I meant 33 hours of cold fermentation in the fridge, then 8 hours room temperature fermentation. While in the fridge, the yeast is dormant as you know, so this doesn't count much, specially so because I'm using a tiny cake yeast (0.1%)

And you're right about lactobacilli being the source of the tangy taste, that's what happens in the fridge.

sallam's picture
sallam

I just thought someone here might confirm that long RT fermentation decreases the tangy taste gained from a preceding CF.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

I think is the way to go. Find the recipe online (easy to find).

You mix the dough (doesn't need any kneading), leave it to bubble up for 2 hours then refrigerate. Absolutely no work to be done.

Makes four loaves and you can also use it as a pizza base.

Take some off, shape, final proof for 30min then bake.

Use it up within a week (I think it might even be 2 weeks) and from day 3 and onwards it really gets very flavoursome almost like sourdough.

But the difference here between your recipes is that when it goes into the fridge it has bubbled up already and the final proofing at room temperature is just 30 minutes.

 

sallam's picture
sallam

When I do so, ferment in room temperature before retarding, I get almost no tang. My own experience taught me to best put it in the fridge immediately.

By the way, my recipe has no kneading. I just mix manually using a wooden stick. The dough is 70% hydration, so I only mix for a minute or 2 just to get all flour wet, then cover the pan of shaggy dough with cling film and put it right away in the fridge. Time does the rest. No mess, no machines, I use one same pan for weighting, mixing, retarding and resting. Minimum washing!

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Find the recipe "artisan bread 5min a day" or some variation of. It's exactly how you describe but leave out for about 2 hours. It'll bubble up and double. Then retard in the fridge. Take some dough off each day and form a boule (or a pizza base) and final proof for 30min then bake in preheated oven. There are YouTube videos too. 

Day 3 and onwards the dough takes on amazing flavour.