The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

French Baguette Crumb Turns Brown

mwayne's picture
mwayne

French Baguette Crumb Turns Brown

Folks, I'm trying to make an amazing French Baguette for my wife how is French and we cannot find good ones around here.

I got Hard White Wheat, stone ground it and sifted to 70% extraction with fine sifting.

I also sprouted some wheat kernels and then dried them in a dehydrator an then grown them also very fine. Have a nice jar of this which smells awesome.

I used recipe of 65% water to flour and 0.5% of yeast and 2% of salts and 0.2% of malt.

Also back the bread in an oven that is sealed with steam.

Some history: Before adding the malt, the bread was coming out quit good but very brown like whole wheat but without much crust and with a yeasty tastes.  Adding the malt makes for a really nice and delicious crust but still brown and yeasty taste. I'm fluent in French so I read Raymond Calvells' book (in French) online and he says the bread can turn brown from too much kneading.  But otherwise, it was not easy to figure out his recipes.

So my last loaves, I made using Julia Childs recipe where she collaborated with Calvell.

She she suggests also very little kneading and also let is rise 3 times over 6.5 hours at least.

I did this...the bread is great, except it turns quit brown like whole wheat bread.

The flower and dough are a lovely light creamy color.  Why does it turn so brown??

I dont think can knead it any less than I already am with Julia's recipe.

Is there something wrong with how I'm sifting the flour?  Or is it the type of wheat?

Or can you only get creamy white French Baguettes with bleached flour?

It's seems in France they got creamy white baguettes long before bleached flour existed, unless I'm much mistaken.

 

 

 

drogon's picture
drogon

or is it a grey colour?

I'm asking because I get stoneground, sifted white flour from a mill in the UK and it's dark cream and bakes to a somewhat dull grey colour - I'm fairly sure this is due to the presence of the wheatgerm in the flour which simple sifting isn't taking out. Roller milling can separate the bran, germ and endosperm much more efficiently than just sifting can.

I get creamy white baguettes with roller milled flour (bleaching is illegal in the UK and probably France too)

-Gordon

mwayne's picture
mwayne

Thanks for your reply.  It's not grey color at all.

Definitely tan color.  I'd say it's 1/2 way between the left side of this web page and the brown banner at the top.

I have spoken with a place that sells roller milled artisan flours for bread that is unbleached. I'm willing to order some just to try that as an experiment.

But my belief is that with a stone mill you can get just as good a roller milled -- if you know what you're doing.

My suspicion is that I'm getting undesirable "bran" or "germ" or "endosperm" in my flour.

 

Question:

Is it even possible to get good creamy white baguettes with stone milled flour at home?

I simply LOVE the idea of being capable to mill my own wheat. 

I hope somebody has advice. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

That would be fresh yeast by the cube as instant would be too much.  Instant yeast would  be 7g per 500g flour,  more than enough.  

mwayne's picture
mwayne

Thank you. I goofed.  My yeast is 0.5%

Here's the actually amounts from my spread sheet calculations for the last baguettes.

 

 Wheat WeightFlour WeightWater WeightYeast WeightMaltSalt
Percent  65%0.50%0.20%2%
Grams6003001951.500.606.00
Ounces21.210.66.90.050.020.21
Pounds1.30.70.4   
mwayne's picture
mwayne

I do feel the problem is the flour which I made myself.

Is there any advice on this site how to stone mill home made flour that
turns our creamy white baguettes?

Trust me I have searched and already learned a TON about milling
flower on this site and love it.  But there must be some little detail
that I'm still missing.

drogon's picture
drogon

... the please let Cann Mill in Dorset know. Their white is the grey stuff I'm using - well almost all used up after I got 100Kg of it. Not sure I'm going to get any more as my customers aren't happy with the greyish colour it bakes to. Makes good bread though.

-Gordon

pmccool's picture
pmccool

Of the times I've used it, the crumb of the baked bread is usually a pale tan color.  It isn't nearly as dark as the sidebars on this page but it might be slightly darker than the background around these posts.

Could it be that the wheat was improperly labeled red wheat?

Paul

mwayne's picture
mwayne

Well I Checked the label again...it's Woodland Non GMO all natural, etc. etc.  Hard White Wheat.

Not sure if they mis packaged it.  I'm too much of a novice to know if it's the wrong wheat.

Any idea how to determine this?

suave's picture
suave

In my experience, 70% extraction by regular sifting may not be enough to obtain sufficiently white flour. 

mwayne's picture
mwayne

I'm using Hard White Wheat.

It comes very dry.

But I means the entire weight multiply by 15% and then add water into a sealed container

and shake it a few times over hour or so until the wheat absorbs all the humidity.

Prior to this the wheat berries are hard, but then after the humidity they are possible to crush in my teeth.

So then I stone grind at a "medium setting".

(I'm confident of my process up until this point.)

Then I sift it with course mesh and discard the bran that won't filter.

The rest of it I grind again much finer.

And then filter it with a fine mesh.

The result of the fine mesh, I use for bread.

What can I improve in this process?

Thanks!

 

suave's picture
suave

The only thing you can really do is to get an even finer sieve.

mwayne's picture
mwayne

Hmmmm.  I'm willing to try that. 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

what a roller mill would call white 'straight flour' at 72% extraction at home, nor can you ever make the multitudes of patent white flours they further refine from their 'straight flour'. 

I've been milling at home for a couple of years now and when i make a 15 to 25% extraction (depending on if I temper  the whole grain,or the the grain is sprouted, the high extraction portion is always creamy color because i can't get out all the bran, germ and some of the clunkier bits of endosperm like they do.   I don't have millions of dollars to grind and sift and bolt it all out.  But thankfully, I don't want to - even if I am making white bread.  i don't want to make bread that is less healthy and tasty because it is made with this white patent flour..

People who grew up in America, Canada, the UK, France and Italy were subjected to what I call 'White Bread Syndrome'.  The low quality flour and unique processes that made Wonder Bread, Chorleywood bread and so many others the low quality staple of the the people also changes what they thought good bread was supposed to be, .  These processes allowed whiter, lower quality, lower protein flour to make bread faster and cheaper.   in France it was different but the everyday, staple baguette made with yeast also used the cheapest, low quality flour that made the bread fast and cheap.  The baguette was the Wonder Bread and Chorleywood bread of France adn its lowest quality., 

The characteristics of these breads were, white, white white, fast. fast fast and cheap, cheap, cheap but most of all - very low quality compared to the quality of what bread was and could be - but better bread couldn't be as white, cheap or as fast either.

When I see white bread I see: fast, cheap bread of the lowest quality with the least complex flavor and lowest nutritional value.  Sadly, for bakers like drogon,  his customers still live with their bread being chorleywood and are used to this kind of bread color.  They think it is superior - when it is as far from it as possible.  But this white thing started long before the industrial age.

The rich wanted white bread  ever since sifting began it seems because the peasants couldn't afford it because of the extra labor cost in sifting out the hard darker bits,and the poor were left with brown bread.  Who knew white flour would get so cheap?  So now drogon either makes an inferior bread (for all kinds of reasons) because his customers are uneducated when it comes to bread and are acclimated to an inferior color in their bread.  He knows it he can't make his customers happy, he will be out of business no matter how good the bread could be using better, non white flour.  He has to change what his customers think to use better flour and have them accept it,  One way is to charge more for it and tell them why.  Rich people have always paid more for everything it seems - and most everyone is rich enough to pay a bit more for better bread

The best people can do is try to explain, to those interested, why white bread of all kinds is the worst and the mark of inferior quality.  I just have people smell a yeast, white bread and compare that with the whitest bread I make - an 80% extraction SD bread.  Then have them taste it.  Then you have to explain why that creamy colored SD bread tastes and smells so much better. - and why it s so much better for them. too.  Once they understand they never go back and will pay more for it..

Still, it seems that most people don't like sour bread or one that isn't white  - no matter how horrible it is which makes me happy that I an not in the bread baking business:-).

http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/french-bread-consumption-plunges.cfm

Even the French are swearing off the bad bread of their past.  I'm guessing they would love a good SD baguette with a bit of whole grains say 20%, or some sprouted grains and or a high extraction flour in it though - at least it would be healthier... and taste way better too.

Happy baking  

mwayne's picture
mwayne

Thanks. I agree with all of what you said.

We don't want "white" bread like with bleached flower or Wonder Bread.

But we do want to make sure we get all the bran out of the flour.

And we expect it to be a creamy color instead of so brown.

Personally, I decided that I dont need the nutrients from bread
as much as  carrier to butter and honey and other delicious things
to eat on the bread. Ha ha.

Thanks

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

keep as much bran as possible since that is where the minerals, fiber, flavor and much of the health benefits can be found.  Not using it seems self defeating and quite a shame.

Bread does make a very fine carrier of some other great foods - cheese and smoked meats come to my mind:-)

Happy baking 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

dabrownman,  I went to an intro to bread baking class once and it ran for about 4 to 5 hours, but there was no lunch break and at the end, the only food we had to eat was the bread we made using AP flour.   I had been baking only whole wheat for quite a time before I went to the class,  but since I was so hungry  I ate a fair amount of bread.  The first bite or two wasn't so bad, but pretty soon, it started tasting empty, like cotton candy.   It is something you don't pick up on the first bite or two, but pretty quickly it almost feels like you can sense or taste the emptiness of AP flour.  

mwayne's picture
mwayne

We're kinda off-topic but I feel the same about all bread including whole wheat.

And potatoes

And rice.

Who wants to just eat a baked potato w/o any butter or whipped cream?

Who wants to just eat rice by itself?

Can anybody really enjoy eating lot of whole wheat alone?

If you do little research you'll find that grass-fed unpasteurized dairy like butter and cheese as well as grass-fed animal fats like meat and poultry, or healthy fish, are the most important foods for nutrition along with egg yolks. Vegetable and fruits are beneficial also.

I feel bread, potatoes, and rice are non-essential foods. I have totally gone without them months at a time and remained completely healthy.

Still, bread potatoes and rice are SO amazing when you put butter, or egg (french toast), or cheese or even meats or other sauces on them.

Yummie

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and I'm just looking for something to park it on.   

Go with the advertising angle for your crumb.   Loaded with natural Beta Keratin!  

Buttery rich natural colour!  (describes colour)   

If crumb colour bothers the meal, encourage eating by candlelight, fine dining only.

If you keep churning them out and having problems,  I will send you an address where you can mail and get rid of them all.   :)

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

You might want to find out what particular wheat variety you have.  Some Most wheats are yellow.

Does your sprouted wheat smell fermented?  Like yeast waters, it could be colouring your dough when heat is applied.

Other options:  

Let the milled flour stand 10 days to oxidise and bleach naturally.  

I caught something about using a microwave to speed up the process.  Very interesting... scroll down for process     http://amerrierworld.com/kate-flour/

mwayne's picture
mwayne

Very cute posts about sending my fails to your address! :) 

Hey, it's not only the color that is off.  

To your question about the wheat, it's Hard White Wheat.
i been studying more about the roller milled processed and reading websites by independent mills.
It seems that they use Hard Red Wheat to make unbleached all purpose flour.
So maybe I should use that Hard Red Wheat instead.

Also, I have come to realize that there are steps in roller milling required to totally separate the germ and the bran from the endo-sperm which don't seem to be practical.

So for home milling I want to figure how to get as much of the brand and germ out of the wheat as possible. But doesn't have to be totally white like factory made flower. I'll be happy with creamy.
My main goal is to make bread with extremely fresh flour, just milled at home.
Trust me, that makes bread taste 100 times better! Mmmmmmmm

Now, when I mill my wheat, my focus was on using as much of the wheat as possible...by sifting and sifting and using my fingers to push the flour through the sieve.  So I was proud to get 70% extraction.

But now I'm realizing that if you want white crumb to only take what actually falls easily through the finest sieve and like one of the earlier posters said, 70% if too high extraction...probably got lot of germ and/or bran in my flour.

Also, another thing that I learned which makes the crumb lighter and whiter is that the flour needs to be oxidized either by aging or by bleaching.  However, I have seen a number of sites swearing by just adding bit of lemon juice to the dough to oxidize it effectively w/o aging or bleaching.

I have had amazing results with other recipes like French Fries by using lemon juice. So I'm eager to experiment.

I will focus on only taking the endosperm and careful to keep the germ and bran out of my flour as much as possible.

Then use lemon juice to oxidize it.   And see what happens.

mwayne's picture
mwayne

By the way about "advertising".  

I have only one customer for my bread.  My WIFE! :)

She is homesick for delicious French baguettes.

I'm fine with eating whole wheat bread and the brown color.
But the "brown" or dark tan color doesn't make her feel at home in France.
And the taste is little off of what we love. So combined it makes
us think something is off about how we're milling the wheat
or the type of wheat berries that we're using.

In short, this is a romantic quest. because I'm so crazy about
my wife, I love her reaction that I'm so committed to making
baguettes she will love and make her briefly at least feel at home
again in the French countryside.

So please everyone work with me and not against me, here! ha ha ha HA

I need light colored crumb--not white--but light colored and
airy light crumb but crunchy brown crust.  I'm doing good on the
crust. But need to improve the crumb.

Wanna hear the funny part?

When wife explained she has tried and cannot get a baguette
to come out right by making it herself. I arrogantly told her not to
worry I can make her one that is perfect in a few days.

That was 6 months ago and now I have bought stand mixer for
kneading, have bought stone mill and sieves, numerous books,
have sealed the oven to keep in the steam, and more, and still 
not getting the "perfect" French Baguette yet. So if nothing else
this is a romantic lesson in humility too.  ha ha ha HA ha ha

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

or wear sunglasses (the brain will change the crumb to white) and use the yummy flour.  Easy!    

...and turn up the wine and music.  

 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

mwayne,  I understand the challenge.  While I home mill, I do so for different reasons, since I don't do any extraction.  If you want to make a perfect baguette for your wife,  I suggest you try your recipe with commercial flour, either bread flour or AP.  If you don't have any problems with the color, then you know the issue is with the berries you are using or the process of milling and extracting.  BTW,  America's Test Kitchen just did an episode on making baguettes.  They said that they spent 8 weeks testing recipes to make something like a french baguette.  In the end, they added a small amount of whole wheat flour  ( they didn't specify, but I assume red whol wheat)  to the AP flour to get the taste right.

mwayne's picture
mwayne

FYI, we tried several All Purpose flours when discovering it was no simple task to make all purpose flour at home.

But one problem was the all the All Purpose flours that we tried "taste" dead of flat when you just directly taste the flour itself. Yuck.

That's in contrast the tasting own one freshly milled flour. It's SO yummie tasting.

And when we make baguettes from it, I get very high scores from my wife on the tastes.
But she gets this confused look about the "funny" color.

Still she's impressed i can make bread taste so nice.

FYI, we tried "aging" the flour this last time...over 4 weeks as an experiment to see 
if that will make it whiter.   It did not help the color.  But the delicious taste is gone now.
Both the flour tastes flat and the bread is far from delicious.

So I have decided that "aging" flour is totally out.  I'm interesting in oxidizing it with lemon juice instead.

But I'm determined how to make it lighter colored as well. 

I found that Pat (proth5) has succeeded at doing this at home. She said to find the info
in her blog so I'm wading though it to find it.

mwayne's picture
mwayne

Folks the reason I'm determined to home mill is that I found out that the professional bakers with the most amazing bread also make their own flour every day.  And my wife and I can both testified that bread made from fresh milled flour is AMAZING. Mmmmmmmm

FrugalBaker's picture
FrugalBaker

very accustomed to rye. May I suggest you to add in a bit of rye flour to your recipe please? 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

is that the flour the French use to make baguettes doesn't exist in the USA so a real Frenchman won't think any baguette you make with US flour is the real deal

Baguettes are made with French T-55 flour.  But there at=re all kinds of t-55 Flours available (.55 Ash content)  Some T-55 will be made for cakes or for pastry or for bread or for country bread and one especially just for for baguettes all are different proteins and made from different kinds of wheat too.

The protein content of French baguette flour is 9-10% but they also rate their protein differently than we do here.  It can be a mix of hard and soft spring, white wheat as well.   Since the  protein is so low in these flours, they add 2% Fava bean flour to the mix to increase the protein but it also oxidizes the flour to make it more white,  Sometimes they put a bit of soy bean flour or garbanzo bean flour in the mix in place of the fava bean.

So to make your wife happy, I would order out some French T-55 flour mixed especially for baguettes from France so she can get the real deal.  Baguettes aren't made with fresh ground flour so that would really put off the tastes, as well as, the color and texture.

To mimic Fresh T-55 flour for baguettes you can use a mix of the cheapest 10% protein grocery store brand AP flour and put 2% Fava bean flour in it.  Fava bean flour can be found in most Italian grocery stores.  If you use cake yeast and get it going in some water and honey will also make a huge difference in the final product when it comes to the crumb.

Happy baking 

mwayne's picture
mwayne

Yes. I'm interesting T-55 Flour.  Except that in France the best bakeries get is made very fresh like same or next day.  That's not easy here in the USA.  So I love your details because i plan to figure out how to make my own T-55 flour totally fresh.  Thanks! for the fava bean flour.  I will get fava beans and learn how to grind them to flour myself.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

soft ,white spring and hard ,spring, white wheat in the fridge at the local Bosch dealer.  The ladies always tell me it won't make decent bread and I just say I]m making cakes and pastry:-)  So, if you want to make your own baguette flour that is close as you can get to fresh that is one place to start.  I also get barley malt syrup there and half sheet parchment paper in bulk,as well as, the cheaper parchment for making tamales if i run out of corn husks.

Happy baking  

mwayne's picture
mwayne

After learning alot more about the roller mill process to get All Purpose unbleached flower,

and with proth5's blog, I think i worked out a process to do flour that is similar to All Purpose

I just made 38 ounces of it.  And just making little sample to test it's color when cooked.

All I did was add 70% water and put it on a buttered cookie sheet. 

 

FYI, This flower was only 40% extraction

So it's w/o yeast or malt or salt.  only to see what color it will be and will probably taste like a cracker.

Mmm yummie.  It tastes good due to being really fresh flour.

But Yaayyy...the color is nice. Wife likes the color. It's little lighter than

the left and right boundaries of this page.  It's bit "yellowish" tan color.

I think that by using Fava Been flour to oxidize it will help the color

be lighter still.

So I'm going to do the above, quick recipe, again with some Fava

bean flower added 2% to see if that makes any difference in color

or taste.