The Fresh Loaf

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First Bread didnt rise......pic attached

samin1987's picture
samin1987

First Bread didnt rise......pic attached

I did the Flo 1-2-3 method as I find it super easy

 

I did ...200g starter, 400g water, 600g flour + salt (I probably skimped on the salt a bit-could this be a reason?)

I also then used (2) 9.25"x5.25" pans...I think for this amount I should have used just 1 pan BUT I googled and it said these pans should have 1.25lb dough-2lb and I did weigh out my dough and it matched this criteria?

The dough spread to the sides but didnt really rise...and I kind of thought maybe my kneading was bad, so I read a forum post here and someone had replied to do a third rise/punch/knead to salvage, because kneading wasnt done ....I also realized I really didnt stretch and fold alot...

So I did all that.......

I mean they did turn out ok, but they just didnt rise in height during proofing-isnt the doughs height supposed to grow during proofing-it seemed as though it "proofed" and the dough looked right but ..no height?...or maybe I didnt think they did.  I believe that my bread would be taller and more sandwhich-size if I had just done 1 pan vs 2 of dough?...is that right? And If so I wonder why all the google pages told me to divide into two pans!!

From looking at it...what are your thoughts?

Ill be honest.....I babysat this all evening, but only because it was my first bread...my husband was waiting to pry me from the kitchen all night!!! ha!

 

I cooked this at 400-425F for 45 minutes and it was still undone in the center...I popped them back in but turned down to 350 for about 30 mintues or so---I kept checking but it wasnt done yet

 

What temperature should I have used?  This seemed to take a bit long to  bake Flo 123 bread right?

 

Is my starter still new, and perhaps that why it didnt rise?

I also put in a glass pie pan with ice cubes until melted, then removed....for steam (I read this is a good way if you dont have a cover)

Im tasting it now and it has come out dense-which i dont mind..in fact I like that...but its REALLY dense with a very hard crust LIKE A ROCK...and I can definitely tell that I didnt add enough salt (I knew I didnt)

I let the first rise go 1 hr and it had seemed to almost double, I perhaps didnt let it finish, all the sites I saw said about 1 1/2hrs but..I dunno.......the second I checked up until a little past an hr where I realized that perhaps I needed a 3rd proof/rise

Thanks all, 

 

Also I do love the Flo 1 2 3, its super easy......can I use this type of recipe for, rye or whole wheat? And is the formula the same......I used bread flour this time..................Also with using Flo's method the dough was initially really wet, I added flour as I was kneading and TO knead......should I start with the flour next time and not add so much water or?........how do I combat that without screwing the recipe up?

 

Maverick's picture
Maverick

Can you tell us about your starter? How old is it? What is the hydration (I assume 100% based on the formula being used)? How is it kept?

I think 1200 grams would be too big for the pan. I seem to recall that pan size using a standard 800 grams or so. Barring any issue with the starter (or over fermentation of the dough), I would say try it with that amount. So you could do a single loaf using 125g of starter, or two loaves using 250g starter and the same 1-2-3 proportion. This will give 750g of dough per loaf not including the salt (which should be 8 or 9g per loaf in this case).

Speaking of salt, that can make a difference as it helps to slow things down. Do you know how much you used? It should be about 2% of the flour. I know a lot of people do the 2% based on the added flour and have good results. Personally I always base the 2% on total flour including the flour in the starter. The difference is only about 1 g per loaf normally so it really won't matter for how it works in the dough (just the flavor) since it is really the difference between roughly 1.8% and 2% which is still in the typical range.

In the case of 125g of starter this would be 8g or 9g of salt (I would use 9g personally but that is the flavor I prefer). Obviously double that for the double loaf size. You could go as low as 7g without real structural change if you like less salt. I don't think I would go below that though. 10g might be pushing it flavor wise but would still be okay as well.

ETA: This is a fairly high hydration dough so you might just need to use more bench flour until you are used to working with that wet of a dough. It will change it slightly but you shouldn't notice much difference other than in the crumb structure.

BTW, you can make a full 800g loaf by using 133g of starter and 10g of salt. I was just trying to make the math/rounding easier, but it isn't like 133, 266, 399 (plus 10g of salt) is really that hard to figure out (or however you want to round it). One thing I like about this is while it is easy to say I have x amount of starter, it is just as easy to say I want y amount of dough and divide by 6 to get the amount of starter.

samin1987's picture
samin1987

My starter is roughly a week old and its 100%:)  So its very new, it certainly could be that its too ripe, but its doubling and bubbling within 6 hrs....and as of now, all is well I think.............I also just edited and added in a lot more details to my original post..and a picture as I realized I had forgot the attachment.

I definitely didnt put enough salt, Im sure of that because I can taste it (yuck)

So Im concerned about proofing times, density, and oven temp/bake time the most?....This recipe seems so easy...

I read that its better with rye/whole wheat is that truthful?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

for the first ever sourdough loaf from a new starter.  

Now I think you should repeat but reduce the amount of ingredients for one 800g loaf.  Since you've been thru this all already it will come so much easier!  

Lack of salt will reduce the volume of the loaf.  

Yes, reduce the water or hold some back while first moistening the flour.  Why? It is easier to add water than flour because all the ingredients are based on the flour amount.  If more flour is added then one needs more salt, more butter, more etc.  You get the idea.  

Different kinds of flour absorb at different rates and some more than others.  Pure AP for example will absorb less than if there is some whole flour mixed in.  Rye will also absorb more than whole wheat.  Whole rye even more than fine rye.

Proofing and sourdough.  A good way to learn about sourdough and rising is to work on a table and cover the dough with a glass bowl between folding.  Knead or just moisten the flour and let it sit for 20 to 30 minutes, cover.   Uncover and lightly flour the tips of your fingers to lightly knead or fold the dough.  Shape and cover.  When you see the dough rising more out than up, remove the bowl and fold again to retain shape.  Cover.   Sourdough will tend to ferment and loose it's shape faster than a yeasted dough so that is a major difference.  The bulk ferment is more like a big long rise with lots of interruptions.  

It often helps to pinch off a large marble or pingpong ball size of dough and cram it into the bottom of a small narrow glass, like a straight sided shot glass.  Use this as a rise guide.  Mark the level and when it "doubles," cover to prevent drying.  Keep it next to your working dough so they share the same temps and you can refer to it easily.  When the dough starts puffing up, do a fold but not on the little ball.  That way you can deflate the dough yet know how far the dough is along the "rise."  Don't let the sourdough gauge double before you go into a final shaping.  You can also knock down the little sample and let if final rise.   Also, don't let it proof completely to "double" and save some rise for the hot oven.  

You will notice that as time and fermentation go by, the sourdough dough will seem more fluid and softer.  It will also take less time to loose it's shape.  When you find yourself folding every 40 minutes to keep it's shape, put it into a well floured banneton for the final rise and deflate the gauge.  Turn on the oven and watch the rising dough.

samin1987's picture
samin1987

yikes.i.just read it.could.take.hrs.to.proof/rise? is that right...it.did..look.right.so......isthat. true, i read.an.hr.or.so.before.i baked.but.maybe thats with established.starters?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

It usually takes more than a few hours.  closer to 6 or 8 but 12 is not uncommon.  A lot depends on the amount of prefermented flour in the  bread dough mix.  The more pre-fermented flour (starter) the faster the overall fermentation of the sourdough dough.  :)   Next time let it rise more???   

I tend to ignore the dough the first few hours.  When it gets to about 1/3 risen (to double) I decide if I want to keep going with it today or fold and tuck it into the refrigerator and deal with it tomorrow.  Then shape in the morning (it is real manageable when cold)  or shape later, whenever, pop it into the banneton and let it rise a final time before baking.  

Lots of ways to go about it.  Look for the method that fits your time schedule.

Recipes are easy, it's all the waiting stuff and poking and wondering that drives us nuts.  If you want to sub out some of the wheat for rye, start with about 50g rye and the rest wheat.  

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

fit the pan just put the pan on the scale and fill it with water.and see how much the water weighs.  If you want the dough to eventually double when baked and be above the rim when done so it looks like a proud loaf then take the weight times .6 (point 60 or 60%.  That is the weight of dough you need. This will fill the loaf pan 60% full.  To find out how much starter by weight you need.... just divide the 60% number by 6. (1+2+3=6)

When it rises to 90% proof (when you want to get it in the heat) the middle of the loaf will have risen above the rim level by an inch.

Then put it into a non convection 450 F oven (your heat is too low) with a metal pan of water in the bottom, half full of water with a kitchen towel rolled up inside.  Put the pan in the bottom of the oven  when the oven hits temperature and wait 15 minutes before putting the bread in to bake.  Do not put your face near the door as you load the bread - let the steam escape first or you will burn your face off. 

Make sure to PAM spray your loaf pan the bread is in.  Steam for 12 -15 minutes then remove the steam pan. turn the oven down to 425 F with convection fan if you have it and continue to bake for 15 minutes.  With an instant read thermometer test the middle of the loaf and shoot for 205 to 210 F.  If you want the crust on the side to be more brown then take the bread out of the pan 10 minutes after the steam comes out and let it finish baking out of the pan.

Make sure you get the gluten developed by doing 30 stretch and folds 4 times, 30 minutes apart and then do 2 more sets of 4 stretches and folds -  45 minutes apart.   Let bulk ferment on the counter for 1-2 hours in an oiled, plastic covered bowl after the last stretch and fold.  Then pre-shape and then final shape 10 minutes later.  Then pan the dough and let it proof in a plastic bag till it rises 1 inch above the rim of pan.  Watch the dough - not the clock.  Your new starter is still very weak.  

Then in the heat it goes.  That should take care of your problems.

Happy baking  

Arjon's picture
Arjon

different types and blends behave differently and produce different results. 

Also, it might help people to know what to tell you if you state your entire recipe and method. 

samin1987's picture
samin1987

Ok thank you guys!

Can I make sure that this is sort of the process:

Mix ingredients, knead a little and let rest for about 30 so the dough loosens

stretch and fold, then rest-- multiple times

then leave to bulk ferment for a few hours after doing stretch and fold a few times

pre shape, rest

shape and into the bread pan

the bulk ferment where we are folding, then leaving the dough to sit a few hours ...then and punch down to shape....is the "first rise" then? 

And once I preshape then shape in pan-I let rise again, NO punching down -for an hour or less depends on dough-this is the "second rise"?

Is that right...

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Don't punch down a dough ever.  If you want to degas it a bit after bulk ferment and during pre-shape - gently do it.  You spent a huge amount of time to gently develop the gluten with stretch and folds so it will hold all that gas and you don't want to punch it all out!  By gently but firmly shaping the dough you will naturally degas it for the final proof in the tin by just removing all the really huge bubbles.

There are lots of videos on YouTube that shows how to shape high hydration bread.  There are also some on the King Arthur Flour web site showing JH doing his thing.

Happy SD baking the gentle way:-) - No punching.  

samin1987's picture
samin1987

I'm confused on one thing so let me make sure.....mini me says she waits a few hrs before messing with the dough, this isn't one of the 2 proofs then?...just let the dough sit so it's easy to handle...then do stretch and folds and do proof 1 or bulk ferment...once that's done degas (gently lol) and reshape...proof for 10 min then final shape and do proof 2 in the pan.......with a plastic bag over it is smart, for obvious reasons.....

i know there's a million ways but does the above sound reasonable or did I miss any steps?...im keeping and feeding my starter on the counter for a month before refrigerating..so by this weekend he will be about 2 weeks....

thats weird, I just said he.....

=D

Maverick's picture
Maverick

thats weird, I just said he.....

Yeah, that is weird ... clearly your starter is a she ;) hehe

Jane Dough's picture
Jane Dough

I mixed my bread dough at 11:00 and let it sit (autolyse) for 30 mins and then began to develop the dough in the bowl until I had some gluten development.  I then did x number of s & f's.    Lost count when the phone rang.   4 point stretch and fold  every 30 min x 6.  Kitchen is around 75F just now but the AC is running today.  I took my dough out to the garage around 230 because it was sluggish and not developing as I felt it should.  The garage temp was 84F so things picked up. I now have my dough at the pre-shape step.  

This is a 90% white (KA bread flour - first time I have used it) and 10% organic light rye (first time with this particular rye too) loaf.   It is very sticky even though it's 66% hydration.  I also used 7 g of salt only for my 420 grams of flour and 18% starter @ 75% hydration (Organic white with a sprinkling of organic rye - a very robust starter).   Normally I am more whole grain but the KA came my way so It was time for me to try a less wholesome blend of flours :). 

I will proof on the counter until the dough shows signs of rising and then in to the refrigerator until morning.  I'll bake it about 530 am  assuming it behaves as expected.  I'll preheat at 500F with my Lodge DO in the oven. At about 30 min my dough will go in to the DO and I'll turn the oven temp down to 460 And pop the DO back In but loaded with dough this time.  Twenty minutes later I will take the lid off and drop the temp to (usually) 420F for another 20-25 mins.  

I think that is a pretty typical schedule for a loaf - or ten for that matter.  Today is a little atypical because I am letting the bread dictate the timing completely. I must admit I was a bit surprised at the bulk ferment time. But without a lot of experience with white or KA brand I have no comparison.  

I posted this in this thread because I think  it represents a very typical and simple production of a loaf of sourdough bread.  While it is time consuming it is not hard work. Different climates produce very different timings of course but that is the nature of the (bread baking) beast.  And of course you can optimize your timing so you do things at different times than I did for this bake. 

Hope that helps a bit in what you can exppect time wise.  

Everything I know about naturally leavened bread I learned from scouring the TFL forums and I continue to practice practice practice.  And as in Clint Eastwood's movie life there has been "the good, the bad, and the ugly"!  I expect it will always be so :(