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Bulk fermentation questions

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

Bulk fermentation questions

This week I tried Forkish Overnight Country Blonde. I wanted to see the difference between doing a room temperature bulk ferment vs cold frigerated bulk ferment.

I followed Ken's method except that instead of 3-4 stretch and folds, I decided to try Dabrownman's method of 3 x 30 slap and folds, followed by 2 Stretch and folds. This was over about 4 hours or so, room temperature about 21°C. There was no obvious increase in size in this time, and I felt dough had developed reasonably well. i refrigerated it over night and in the morning you could see fine bubbles but not much increase in volume. So I left it another 4 hours and while there was definitely more volume the dough had not trebled in volume he mentions. I went ahead, shaped, proofed and baked. Proofing time was about what he said (4 hours) and loaf had reasonable oven spring and nice crumb so I am reasonably happy.

In this instance, the dough had not quite doubled after about 16 hours. I was afraid to leave it longer in case it turned to goo! But It made me think....

How do I tell how long I should bulk ferment? Is the purpose of bulk ferment flavour development or dough strength or something else? I assume that the dough should be puffy, gaseous, "wobbly" before I shape? but sometimes the dough doesn't expand as much as Ken suggests so should I bulk ferment longer until it reaches this point? Does anyone have some pointers on how to determine this.

I think I prefer a bench bulk ferment followed by a cold overnight retard, the timing is a bit easier to manage, but I will try Ken's recipe again or his Overnight Country Brown after some feedback.....

Leslie

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Hi Leslie,

My understanding of bulk fermentation is as follows... One could mix the dough, shape and go straight into final proofing and bake. Final proofing we know is when the dough has risen to the correct volume to get a good leavened loaf. But this does not mean that all the yeast food has been used up. We also know that flavour comes from fermentation. So by adding in a bulk fermentation then knocking back and shaping for final proofing you will improve the flavour of the bread. Bulk Fermentation in a nutshell.

One can knead the dough at the beginning when it's first formed then go into bulk fermentation, knock back then shape for final proofing etc. Or alternatively, one can incorporate stretch and folds while it is bulk fermenting with rests in-between to develop the gluten overtime. You're just making use of the time it is bulk fermenting to develop the gluten. The advantage of one over the other is probably a different crumb and/or using the rests to help. Also, the latter method is good for higher hydration doughs where traditional kneading will be difficult. i.e. stretch and folds (or slap and folds) is an effective way to develop the gluten without kneading as such.

Hope this helps.

 

- Abe.

lepainSamidien's picture
lepainSamidien

This one is a great topic for discussion, and I'm sure that we're on the verge of a lot of different opinions on it. Allow me to ramble a little on it (NOTE: I am not a scientist, so almost all of this is coming from many personal experiences).

How I approach the bulk ferment depends on a couple of factors: 1. how I am developing the structure of the dough (e.g. by the Tartine Stretch+Fold at intervals, or a 10-minute slap and fold session after an autolyse, or some combination of the two) and 2. how much time I have to stay near the dough. If I can dote on my dough and have no obligations, I'm inclined to do a shorter and warmer bulk ferment, as I find that I can get pretty good flavor development in just about 3.5-4 hours, with the right temperature and the right percentage of levain added. And usually, for doughs that I can watch more meticulously, I will be a little bit more insouciant about the structural development. I won't do any slap and folds, and just do stretch and folds inside of the bulk fermenting mixing bowl. 

If I have to go to work and can't spend the day with my hands in the dough, I'll usually do a longer slap+fold kneading session after a 20 or 30 minute autolyse, and then let it bulk ferment at room temperature for an hour or so before throwing it in the fridge for as long as I need to. However, like you, I have found that the dough isn't always willing to expand like I'm hoping, though I have found also that a couple of stretch and folds before putting in the fridge usually mitigates the problem. If you find that your dough isn't gaseous after a while in the fridge, pull it out and give it a quick kneading to warm it up and move around all the micro-organisms, and leave it in a warm place a while.

Obviously, a vigorous levain also helps immensely. If your levain is lagging, then your dough too will lag. Make sure you have built up your starter to a strong strong state before expecting it to bring flour to life.

Good luck !

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

but the day before had made a multi grain loaf with a 6 hour bulk ferment (including S & Fs) followed by a 6 hour proof.  This was all at room temperature which hovers around 20 - 21°C (with the heat pump keeping it at that temperature cause its winter here). so starter is fine, maybe I should have used a bit more?

Jane Dough's picture
Jane Dough

In reading Hamelman's section on bulk fermentation in "Bread" I understood that the primary purpose of the bulk fermentation phase is flavor development. During that time organic acids are produced that are mainly responsible for flavor and also for have some strengthening effect on the dough structure and the keeping quality. 

My simple thinking accepts that a cold retard would do quite well for flavor development.  However I really do not comprehend how one can expect a dough do come out of a cold retard fully proved, unless like Forkish, one uses a high percentage of leaven.  I think Hamelman states that the optimum range for the bulk fermentation is between 75°and 85°F to allow for both flavor and volume equally.  That's the premise I am working with anyway.  So I think the shaped retard is a better option for me.

Now I'm going to sit back and wait for the discussion from those that know a lot more than me.  Because I too struggle with best practices for bulk fermentation.

KathyF's picture
KathyF

I believe, for the Overnight Country Blonde, the bulk ferment is suppose to be done at room temperature. I did that with my first try and it more than tripled by morning. When I tried the recipe again I tried putting it in the fridge overnight and it didn't rise nearly as much, but the bread still turned out good.

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

KathyF - You are quite right! I didn't read recipe properly, just went with the impluse - overnight proof means overnight cold retard!!  can't believe I missed that.  thank you, it is one mystery solved, but the other questions remain :). 

Leslie

KathyF's picture
KathyF

I thought the same thing. While I was in the process of working on my first country blonde I happened to read a blog post by Skibum where he mentioned that it was suppose to bulk ferment on the counter. I had to go re-read the recipe because I was convinced that I was suppose to cold retard overnight! However, maybe because of the warmer weather, it did seem to overproof. It seemed to work as well with the cold retard, though I did have to leave it out in the morning for a couple of hours before I felt it was ready.

As to how long to bulk ferment? After doing it a while, I feel that when it starts to feel spongy when I do the stretch and folds, it is ready. If I let it go too long, then I feel it affects the texture of the crumb. Too little and it takes a lot longer in the final proof.

rgconner's picture
rgconner

I go by size: 3X rise means time to shape!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

complain that Ken's times are way, way too long compared to their experience which points to the idea to watch the dough and not the clock.  In your case, it is just the opposite.  You are thinking his times are too short to get the rise he says to look for.  Temperature is usually the culprit but, in your case, your temperature is almost exactly what Ken calls for in his book if I remember correctly. 

Ken's recipes have additional problems for most bakers because of his massively, wasteful quantities in his levain builds which most bakers just won't do as well.   The size and how vigorous the levain is also plays a major role in the timing as lepainS says.  i agree with lepainS about how I handle the gluten development.

For the longest time i took to the notion that the gluten development should be done as soon as possible in the process and then gently maintained over the net few hours as the dough fermented so I used to do 8-10 minutes of slap and folds and then 4  stretch and folds over 2 hour period from mixing (20 minutes apart) with no bulk ferment at all  (because of the heat here in AZ), then shaped and right into the fridge for a 12 hour retard.  I really didn't care much how much it had risen before it went for the shaped retard. I just wanted to know it has risen some usually around 10%.  This produced the most open crumb for me which I attributed to not handling the dough and deflating it somewhat to shape so close to baking since I was baking right out of the fridge of proofed ore after a shot warm up on the counter if not.

The problem I was having was that the dough was over proofing in the fridge while i slept and, while the crumb wasn't badly affected,the spring and bloom were hurt.  If it over proofed too much, I could fix it by reshaping and re-final proofing on the counter the next morning which is just like doing a long cold bulk ferment and shaping  and proofing on the counter - but the crumb was never as open as when it was shaped and cold proofed and I caught it just right the next morning to bake.

I then tried to get the best of both worlds by following David Snyder's SJSD method by substituting 30 slap and folds 3 times for his 30 stretch and folds in the bowl 3 times 30 minute apart. (10 minutes longer than my method)and 2 stretch and folds over 90 minutes.  This add more time to the gluten development counter work so the dough was a bit more puffy say 15% before it hit the cold.  if I put it in the fridge shaped, it would really be over proofed in the 18-24 hours of cold retard - so bulk fermenting was the only way to go with a shape and final proof on the counter the next morning.  All because of the heat.    I still think the crumb suffers a bit this way but i can get it in the oven at exactly the right time so the spring and bloom are much better than the normal shaped proof method,

The SJSD method gets me more retard time, from 12 hours for the shaped proof to 18-24 for the bulk ferment. so the bread does taste better and is more complex in flavor the SJSD way.

I guess what I'm saying is that you need to find out what works the best for you to make Ken's recipes work for you -  there isn't a right or wrong way but his way is the guide to get what he wants out of the bread.  As long as the gluten is developed well, there is enough time in the process to develop the flavor and you get it in a hot, steaming  oven at the right time, properly shaped, then you should get a fine loaf of bread  out of the oven that looks and tastes great.

I think what you did was what i would do under the same circumstances but, like you, i would change things based on the results.

it is odd, that with your temperatures so close to Ken's kitchen, that things aren't a lot closer to happening to what he describes.....the dough still tells the tale:-)  I have to say that, even in the winter when my kitchen temperatures match Ken's,  his times are still too long for me - just the opposite of your experience.

Happy Baking 

rgconner's picture
rgconner

If people are complaining about the amount of flour used, they have not read his directions very well:

 

You can pare down the amount of levain, fresh flour, and fresh water used with each feeding as long as you maintain the same ratios. Here’s the formula for maintaining half the amount of levain: • 50 grams (3 tablespoons) of levain • 50 grams (⅓ cup + 1 tablespoon) of whole wheat flour • 200 grams (1 ½ cups + 1 tablespoon) of white flour • 200 grams (⅞ cup) of water, 85 ° F to 90 ° F (29 ° C to 32 ° C), depending on the season

Forkish, Ken (2012-09-18). Flour Water Salt Yeast: The Fundamentals of Artisan Bread and Pizza (Kindle Locations 2577-2581). Potter/TenSpeed/Harmony. Kindle Edition.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

now famous video Ken made that show him taking his huge amount of levain he built, tosses 3/4th of it in in the trash claiming it is 'spent fuel' then uses the little bit of spent fuel he has left...... to make his loaf of bread:-)

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

on YouTube. A mature starter is not spent fuel. It's fuel with amazing potential. That's what turns dough into bread. So it's a little confusing.

But having said that, while I find his methods eccentric, I do admire him for great tasty recipes. I put it down to eccentricity.

 

rgconner's picture
rgconner

Ken is a former IBMer, I am a current IBMer.

His methods are very "IBM"ish, which is sort of doing things the "right way, wrong way, IBM way". When he writes the actual recipes, they read very much like IBM "Reeboks" 

He has a method that works, and he tends to stick to it, right or wrong.

You can even read about it in his book, when his first bakery failed, it was in part because he insisted on the "Best" (like very expensive salt from France) even though his customers did not want, or like, what he was doing.

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

levain and tossing 3/4th of it in the trash as spent fuel of his current bakery will be out of business due to waste.  We all know that these large levain builds of his are not necessary and the thrown away portion is not spent fuel and must also think this if he is at all a normal SD baker.

As a libertarian when it comes to most things, i really don't care how people make their bread, how much they waste in materials or time, what kind of bread they make or like.  If they aren't hurting me - no worries.  If they are hurting someone else then I am sorry for both of them.

Ken certainly is rich enough, and it is his money,  to do what ever he wants when it comes to bread.

I can remember when IBM was on top of the world when it came to anything computing and then the company fell so far, so fast, that  they nearly went out of business.  I chalked it up to them being on top for so long that it became a tradition that the IBM Way was the right way because it  historically always was for so ling.  But then things changed and the IBM Way was no longer the right way but the traditions of the IBM Way wouldn't let the company change - and not changing nearly killed the company..  Thankfully they managed to save the company, rise from the ashes and learned to compete in a new world where they were no longer the only dominate player in the computing world. 

Traditions are all tied up with ego and pride - two of the 3 things that cause failure - along with fear.  We can only hope that the ego and pride that created the tradition of the IBM Way.....is still dead.

Happy baking 

rgconner's picture
rgconner

Every organization has that same attitude, the question is will they follow it to their grave (or bankruptcy)

Individual people do the same thing. I bet there is dishes at Thanksgiving and Xmas that are done a particular way because they have always been done that way. 

I'll even bet you have a specific way of brushing your teeth or shaving. I know I do... is it better than anyone else? No. It is just the way I do it.

It is not so much ego or pride, it is inertia and culture.

(if you don't think your company is the best at what it does, you should find a company that you do feel does it the best possible, you will be happier.)

I think it is the same for bread making. We do things because they work for us, and while others might learn from what we do, the fact is that each of us does it slightly different because it works.

rgconner's picture
rgconner

What I want know is what is written.

What he says in video is what he says, but what he writes is more concrete. (Which was published first? I dunno)

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

to ignore what people write and say but watch, very closely, what they do instead if you want to know the truth about them and their ideas.

The latest example, the announcement yesterday of George Soros buying the beaten down stocks of 2 nearly bankrupt coal companies after doing everything he could to put these companies out business with his total 'take no prisoners' green energy mantra put into place by the Obama administration, tells me way more about him than his silly mantra.

The old saying of believe half of what you read and none of what you hear will alway steer you straight.  Just watch what people do instead.

Happy baking 

rgconner's picture
rgconner

I dont understand the need for Ken to be wrong. What is the axe people have to grind?

His processes work, regardless if you throw away most of the starter or not. It is not the only method he discusses, so he is flexible too.

But for some reason people rather not give him any flexibility.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

There is no need for Ken to be wrong and no axes to grind.  We just don't agree nor should we ever want to - we can't agree with anyone on everything - so no worries - its just bread in the end.  

Happy Baking 

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I really like all the breads I have made using his recipes.  I think, I just need to get my head around how my starter performs as apposed to his, modify my timings and keep on baking. its a great journey!

Happy baking everyone.

Leslie

rgconner's picture
rgconner

Ken lays out what impact temp has on development:

The biggest variable is going to be the ambient temperature. If your kitchen is significantly warmer or colder than mine, which typically hovers around 70 ° F (21 ° C) and gets down to about 65 ° F (18 ° C) at night, you may need to make adjustments.

Forkish, Ken (2012-09-18). Flour Water Salt Yeast: The Fundamentals of Artisan Bread and Pizza (Kindle Locations 2529-2531). Potter/TenSpeed/Harmony. Kindle Edition.

and, talks about using it as a guideline, but that other factors indicate how the ferment is progressing:

I suggest getting familiar with the way your levain smells when you take it out of its bucket to use in dough. That smell will directly translate to the flavor of the bread. See how you like the way the bread tastes. If it’s too tart or sour, you can adjust next time by using slightly cooler water when feeding the levain in the morning or by mixing the final dough a little earlier in the afternoon, when the levain isn’t as ripe. Likewise, if your kitchen is humid and a lot warmer than mine, say 80 ° F (27 ° C), then you may want to mix your final dough an hour or two earlier than the recipes prescribe. On the other hand, if you have a hot kitchen, you could follow the schedule I outline and discover that you like the taste of the bread from an extra-ripe levain, which is a little more pungent and sour.

Forkish, Ken (2012-09-18). Flour Water Salt Yeast: The Fundamentals of Artisan Bread and Pizza (Kindle Locations 2531-2537). Potter/TenSpeed/Harmony. Kindle Edition.

rgconner's picture
rgconner

I would go back to the Forkish method of stretching the dough. Just my 2 cents.

Why?

Because you can follow the development of the gluten better. 

I do the fold every 20 min until the dough holds a shape. If it has relaxed less than say 25% since the last stretch, then the dough is ready for the bulk ferment. 

Every flour is different, and every Culture is different (really different) so you have to tune the times and the methods to suit your combination of flour and Culture.

KAF is very different than the super consistent and super fine flour that Ken uses (available at my local Cash and Carry for $17 for 50 lbs).

KAF is "peas and pumpkins" in my opinion, while the Shepherd's is very consistent texture. Almost as silky as a southern biscuit flour like White Lily or a cake flour. 

Which is why I like the stretch and fold, I can feel and see when the bread is developed enough.

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

later will reread all posts and will post some questions...   you are all a wonderful resource to have... :)

Leslie

Dan001's picture
Dan001

Good Morning.

We develop our gluten entirely by hand with 3 to 4 S&F, divide, shape and cold refrigeration for 12 to 16 hours, and bake directly from the fridge.

There is several ways to make bread and that is the beauty of baking. Here is how I do it.

Here is some observation

1- Your levain in your receipe should be considered a Pre ferment, therefore between 30 to 50% of your final dough

2- If you don't have a pre ferment, the gluten will deteriorate to the point that you will have a goo.

3- We start our mixing with the levain when the PH has reached a 4.1 to 4.3 level. This acidity will slow down enzyme activity and therefore help a long cold fermentation( Super important)

4- After 16 hours of cold fermentation ( at 4 celcius) you barely see and volume increase in your dough

5- Usually a yeast bread will expand for the first 30% of your baking and then stabilise. When using cold long fermentation, your loaf will expand for 60% of your baking time. So a 30 minutes bake, your loaf will continue to expand for approximately 18 minutes before stabilizing and this on a linear manner( meaning that the volume increase is stable and steady) for the entire 18 minutes

6- A stiffer dough will deal better with long cold fermentation. ( you might have to reduce a few % your hydration in order to get what you are looking for)

Good luck and I hope that helped

Daniel

www.boulangeriedesrosiers.com

 

RoundhayBaker's picture
RoundhayBaker

...Could you also explain if there's a pH level you test for after mixing the dough? I ask because I've been wondering about whether to start taking pH readings myself.

Cheers.

Dan001's picture
Dan001

Sorry for the long delay in my reply.

I do not test my PH after mixing because it is a simple math. If your water PH is at 7( You should also know your water PH) and your starter is at 4.1 then your mixed dough will be at around 5 depending of the proportion of the starter. In other words if your receipe requires  35% levain in the final dough, you would get something like 7 times .65= 4.5 and then 4.1 times .35= 1.435 your starting dough will be at 4.5 plus 1.435= 5.932.

Then your bulk fermentation will once again dictate your final PH depending on how long your will let it ferment. We do it until the Ph is at around 4.8 to 5.1 which in our case translate in 12 to 18 hours at 4 Celcius overnight

Unfortunately without a proper PH meter, it will always be a guessing game, because your flour, water and dough temp will always influence how your dough will behave. I know it's a lot of money but if you are into " predictability" a PH meter in the world of Sourdough is as important as any other piece of equipment that you might have.

 

Happy baking

Daniel

www.boulangeriedesrosiers.com

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

But can you explain "2" in greater depth?

 

Dan001's picture
Dan001

The pre ferment is  creating  acidity that slow down the breakdown of the Gluten. In fact most people talk about gluten deterioration when in fact it should be called" Controlled Enzime Activity"  CEA. Think about it  as if  the acidity in your sourdough is a regulator that slow down the power of the enzyme.

Another solution ( to obtain about the same results) would be to add some Vital Gluten to your final mix in order to put your dough on Testosterone.  Now the enzyme have to work much harder to get to the same results. However if you were to let ferment for say 48 hours, the vital gluten would also get weaker and weaker in time.

It is all about experimenting.  Hey, who knows maybe a nice blend of acidity and a small dose of Vital Gluten will get the exact results you are looking for

 

Gor for it.. experiment and have fun

 

Daniel

www.boulangeriedesrosiers.com

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

A pre-ferment like a poolish or a biga in a yeasted dough? Or a sponge like a sourdough? Isn't a starter a pre-ferment? 

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I have reread and tried to get to grab hold of what are the most important points for me

1.  Read the recipe,   read it again during the process and dont get sidetracked, experimentation can come later

2. Bulk ferment is all about flavour, the length of BF will determine flavour

3. when is BF finished - I need to learn how to judge this. (KathyF suggests when dough feels spongy, rgconnor - when it is 3x bigger) but some recipes suggest dough should be only 2x bigger. will this affect the crumb? does this matter, or is it just more or less flavour

4. dough strength during BF ( S & F and Slap & fold to develop gluten more ) - I need to get better strength especially in high hydration breads so I can shape better. S & F until dough almost holds shape between S&F (I like this suggestion as it is something tangible to aim for). I have always been too afraid to carry on with more S&F, I thought I needed to leave dough to develop undisturbed 2,4,6 etc hours before shaping. 

5. Influence of room temperature. At the moment my kitchen is about 21°C during the day but it can drop to about 12°C on a cold night. In the summer it will be maybe 25°.  As i misread Ken's recipe, maybe the dough would have trebled on the bench so I will need to check this out.  I have made Field Blend #1 and increased temperature in "proofing box" to what he suggests but I think I prefer to just let the dough do its own thing at ambient temperature and accept that it may well take longer.  and I do like the flexibility that overnight cold retard of the shaped loaf gives me.  

Mostly thank you for all the insights you given me, now I just need to put it into practice!  So my next steps will be to do extra S&F until I get the gluten more developed, learn to judge when BF is sufficiently advanced and then of course, get the shaping right, with good oven spring, nice ears and great crumb! ..... I'll be practicing for a while I think. :)

Leslie

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Is to bulk ferment and final proof before your dough turns to goo. As discussed the bulk ferment is for flavour. One can go straight into final proofing but this doesn't mean there's no life left in the dough for longer fermentation. So you add in a bulk ferment then knock back for the final proof to get that extra flavour. As long as this is all done within the time limit then the bulk ferment time is up to you. 2x or 3x is a visual guide only. The most important thing is time and that you don't over do it before your dough is turned into a huge starter.

Whether it's 2x or 3x I would think there are many factors and opinions. Of course you don't even have to do that. You can do by 0.5x and then shape and go into final proofing if you wish. You've still added in extra time then if you went straight into final proofing. A recipe will often give you a visual guide. I generally do 2x for bulk fermentation then 85-90% for final proofing, so just under double. As my own general rule.

Of course a lower hydration dough will have more lift then a higher hydration dough so take that into consideration.

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

Happy baking 

aaa's picture
aaa

Same problem here!  So which would be better, to ferment for 15 hours in  the fridge, or ferment just until doubke in  size?  Would these two methods produce very different flavour?

April Anderson, Slocan Park BC

David Mackie's picture
David Mackie

I started with Ken Forkish's book and it was great when I first started baking bread. Follow the recipe (although I did not use his huge amounts of starter - I know in a line somewhere he mentions you can use smaller amounts but all his recipes use wasteful amounts).  

But Hamelman is what I use now. His book is packed with information while Forkish is more of a recipe book with much less explanation of why you are doing things.  Hamelman suggests that a bulk fermentation rise of about 30% in volume is enough and this is what I do now.  I often do a retarded proofing of the shaped loaves in the fridge overnight and bake in the morning.  I find this gives me wonderful texture but crumb and crust and complex flavours.

I also build a "young" levain for each bake as Chad Robertson suggests in his books. I do a build about 8-12 hours before mixing and I usually get a nice active levain that has a lot of lactic instead of acetic acid so is sweeter and leads to a better loaf.

I also follow more of a Chad Robertson/Hamelman mix of method for mixing rather than Forkish. I add the levain to the water, disperse, add flour, mix and autolyse.  Forkish makes this complicated by adding the levain after the autolyse and putting it into a bowl of water and then transferring to the bread - complicated and fraught with danger as I screwed this up on transfer and messed up the hydration.  In general Forkish's methods are unnecessarily complicated.

Get Hamelman's book.