Relatively new baker, crumb a bit damp and, well, crumbly - my present problem..
Hi all, hoping someone can help with this one. I have been making my sourdough (30% rye) loaf every other day for a few months, trying new things and improving slowly. My latest problem can be seen in the pic. The crumb is a bit damp and falling apart.
I pre-heat the oven to 225, add the loaf and a tray of boiling water, turn the oven down to about 175 for 40 minutes, then I turn the oven off and remove bread from tray, but leave in the oven for an additional 15 minutes to let the bottom crust up a bit.
What I changed - I used to leave the poolish for 24 hours and the last rise for 12 hours. Now the poolish rests for about 18 hours and the last rise is about 7 hours (its been warmer here in Scotland!). I don't anything else has changed other than perhaps reducing the starter a bit (trying to get more sour taste), but replacing the lost hydration with a touch more water. Certainly the dough seemed the same consistency on the last knead - perhaps even a bit dryer.
Does anyone have any tips on producing a better crumb, given this problem?
Adrian
Is my initial thought - but it doesn't have that gummy look - does it squeeze together into a doughy lump if you take a pinch from the middle?
I tend to bake things hotter though - starting at 250 with steam for 10-12 minutes then down to 200-210 for 20-25 minutes (or more)
However i'm also wondering if you're leaving the starter/poolish for too long. Care to post the full recipe & method?
Cheers,
-Gordon (another Scott, living in Devon though)
Thanks Gordon,
You might be right - it is a bit gummy. Surprised though, because not much has changed from my last loaf which was fine. But perhaps I missed something...
That's a hot oven - I used to bake at 225 for the first 10 minutes or so, but found the crust was way too hard at the end (after turning down to 175 and baking for 45 minutes).
My recipe:
Poolish:
160g Sourdough starter (its really high hydration, maybe 100% - consistency is like a thickshake)
220g water
160g Rye
90g Strong white
Then prior to final knead:
250g Strong white
10g salt
1 tblspoon butter
3/4 tblspoon Malt barley
Cheers!
Adrian
I agree with drogon on the heat. Apart from anything else, the hotter the oven when the loaf goes in the better the oven lift will be and better oven lift means a more open crumb.
If you're only baking at a lower temperature to keep the crust soft then you could increase the amount of fat a bit, perhaps using milk or yoghurt in place of some of the water or increasing the amount of butter, and then turn the oven all the way up for the first five minutes. I wouldn't go below 200°C for the remainder. Also, if you're using an electric fan oven, kill the fan as that may be drying the crust out and making it thicker and harder.
The centre of your loaf should be somewhere around 95°C when it comes out of the oven. I've heard anywhere from 92-98°C quoted but I usually aim for ~95°, which seems to work.
Thanks Jon, will try this changes on tomorrow's loaf!
there isn't much value in steaming the oven. That may prevent some of the moisture from evaporating from the loaf during baking.
What is the internal temperature of the loaf when you take it from the oven?
Is the loaf still warm when you slice it?
Paul
No steam? But the crust is awesome. I assumed the steam responsible (at least for the top) . I have never been able to maintain the shape of a loaf without a tin (throughout the rise prior to the oven) . I have an oval shaping basket, but not a loaf shape. Is that how I could maintain the shape? I ideally want more crust, so you have hit on a point I am trying to improve.
I didn't measure the internal temp. What should it be?
I wait 20 minutes at least until the first slice (unless the wife is hungry) (-;
It's probably still baking 20 minutes out of the oven! I wait 90 minutes and reckon I'm pushing it at that, as it's definitely still on the damp side and more liable to stick to the bread knife than if left for another hour or so.
By cutting the loaf while it is still hot, you guarantee that it will be too wet and prone to collapse. Let it cool all the way to room temperature so that the baking process is complete, as Jon notes. Even better, since your formula contains 30% rye, wait until the next day to slice into the loaf. If you have noticed any gummy residue on your bread knife, waiting a day will give the moisture levels in the loaf time to redistribute and equalize and eliminate the stickies.
Paul
A day before the first cut! Are you mad? I'd be up for Divorce! :-) But I agree - as long as possible. Subsequent to my original post the crumb improved over time as it cooled a bit more and dried out.
Adrian
Than trying to resist the "go on, just one slice" impulse when there's a just-baked bread in the house. The aroma gives me a horrible twitch, but hey...
I usually try and time my bakes so that they go into the oven in the evening after supper, so I'm not hungry, and then the temptation to slice into a new bread is far less. That way it's just about right for lunch - I'm usually a porridge girl at breakfast, unless there are croissants in the house...
And with home-baked sourdough, the flavour tends to improve with keeping too.
I just baked another.... This time later in the day and will leave it till tomorrow. Tks!
Adrian
I should say that my loaf just splays out in all directions during the rise (without a tin or basket). Is that about surface tension?
it's about many things - gluten development being one of them - and with 30% rye in the mix it's going to start to flow on long ferments. I'd stick to tins for now..
I do make an almost free-form 100% rye loaf though - however its proved overnight in the fridge in a banneton then directly into the oven in the morning. (out of the banneton, of-course!)
-Gordon
Thanks Drogon,
Is it worthwhile removing from the tin as early as possible to help develop an all round crust? If so, how soon could that be with a 240/200 oven?
with tin loaves. Maybe a few extra minutes at the end if I think it needs it, but not really to form a crust, just to make sure the inside is cooked.
-Gordon
colour on the bottom as the sides and top. Makes me think the loaf could drop down a notch, closer to the bottom of the oven for more heat.
Or if the pans are shiny, leave the loaf on the same shelf but try darker or glass pans. :)
i think that the amount of stater in the poolish maybe to much for a 24 hour ferment as its not far off a normal build for a sour dough starter that would normally take 3 feeds in 24 hours, id look at halving the amount of starter going into the poolish.
With the boiling water in the tray , you dont need to much water boils at 100C so it is drawing heat from the desired higher oven temp. If it not all gone in the first 5 - 10 minutes it is going to be a steamed pudding or chinese Pau.
i would certainly keep the temp up 200 - 210 for the bake, the malt can have an effect on the crust colour and also the crumb the crust taking more colour and the crumb can be a little more tacky.
I have found that if you want a little more sour flavour to develop then a bit of mistreatment of your starter seems to produce that, instead of the 3 feeds a day for a healthy starter, a starving starter with just the one feed a day in the build up does produce a more noticeable sour taste especially done over a few days.
I think making the same loaf is a good way to judge your improvements especially if you only make minor changes each time, keeping an exercise book for keeping notes on each days bake and include weather temps flour temps dough temps, times starting and finishing etc all helps in the long run and of course pictures definitely help as you can compare.
Kind regards Derek
"...instead of the 3 feeds a day for a healthy starter, a starving starter with just the one feed a day in the build up does produce a more noticeable sour taste..."
Are you sure it's not just that three feeds a day is overfeeding, diluting the starter and thus reducing the sourness? Surely one feed a day should be sufficient.
ISTR seeing a thread hereabouts on the subject but I can't locate it at the moment.
Hi Jon the 3 feeds are as the starter peaks, and an active starter will and should get to that stage, I am a bit lazy and tend to do 2 feeds especially with the starter i maintain at work , the first feed being at 8.00 AM as i start work, it is peaking by 4.00 PM so it gets its second feed then before i go home, . i tend to use chilled water with this feed to slow things down somewhat as a midnight feed is out of the question. The feed is equal quantities of starter flour and water to maintain the 100% hydration. The 8.00AM feed is often after the culture has peaked and has fallen back.
There is little to no waste as the discarded culture is added to a dough that is made for bread rolls for the training restaurants two sittings Lunch and Dinner, not as the rising agent but as an addition of fermented flour to the dough that gives a better flavour and some extensibilty to the Roll dough.
regards Derek
Thanks all for the info. Clearly a hotter oven seems to be a consensus so I am going to try that out today. My pan of hot water does last the duration - perhaps I should only put enough water in to last the first 15 minutes or so?
I also don't look after my starter quite as well as 3 feeds a day. It only ever gets 1 feed, and occasionally I do forget, so once a week it goes 48 hours without anything. I'm a bad parent sometimes... :-)
Appreciate all the help!
Adrian
There are many (many!) schools of though on this. Here is mine:
My starter(s) are viable and active. I use them most days (5-6 days/week for the wheat, 2 for the rye and 3-4 for the spelt). I use them directly from the fridge (I keep between 400-500g in 1 litre kilner jars) - that's directly as in: fridge starter into flour + water + salt, mix/knead/ferment... scale/shape/proof... oven. When I need more then I bulk up the starter from the fridge in a separate bowl using one part starter to 2 parts flour and 2 parts water - so 100g starter + 200g flour + 200g water = 500g levian (after 5-6 hours). (The Rye is different as its at 150%)
The starters are topped up as soon as I take from them and put back in the fridge - although often now they get an hour or so out of the fridge as I'm doing other stuff before I do back downstairs to where the fridge it. I never feed them when I go on holiday - they sit in the fridge for a week or 2 without any issues.
Here is another popular method too: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/40918/no-muss-no-fuss-starter
I currently keep 3 jars of starter (wheat, spelt & rye), but am leaning towards keeping just one; Rye. However I need a big bucket that'll fit in the fridge - I'm using upwards of 3Kg of levian some days now which needs 600g to kick it off (unless I do a 2-stage build). Not sure yet though... (My Rye starter occasionally crawls out of the jar when I feed it, so I need a big bucket!)
I do not subscribe to the daily discard + feeding regime. Never have, probably never will. Its wasteful in my books and doesn't serve any purpose from my point of view. (and I have the stereotype of a nation to uphold!)
Others have different views and that's fine. Some say the daily + discard will say it maintains a better flavour, more (or less!) sour and so on, but at the end of the day what works, works. Find a way the suits you and stick to it. This is the way I've been doing it for the past 5 years when I was making 1 loaf a week to now when I'm making 20-30 a day (and currently showing no signs of slowing down - people want real bread, it seems!)
Your loaf above has a relatively low hydration - total flour is 580g (80 in the starter, 90 + 160 in the poolish plus 250 in the main) and 300g water (80 in the starter + 200 in the poolish) Was there any more water in the main mix? It seems very low... If I wanted a basic tin load with a bit of rye in it, this is what I'd do: Take 150g starter from the fridge (then top that up with 75 flour + 75 water and put it back in the fridge), add into this 350g white flour + 150g rye, a dolop of malt extract, 8g salt and 350g water. Mix, knead, leave. I'd do this at 9pm and leave it overnight in a cool place. In the morning, degas, shape it and put it in the tin and leave to prove - should be no more than 90-120 minutes (look up finger poke test) - then into a hot oven to bake.
Hm. Might make some for tomorrow - seems a good mix.
-Gordon
Thanks for the info Gordon,
There is so much to learn and so little time. I'm going to try your mix today. My poolish is in the fridge now. I snap a pic tomorrow after baking.
My original mix has no additional water - just what I had noted. Perhaps that is part of the problem with baking at a higher temp - it needs more hydration AND higher temp.
Adrian
Gordon,
I'm finding this mix to be incredibly sloppy. Is that the way its meant to be? I think in the morning I won't be forming the loaf, but rather pouring it into the loaf tin (well, not quite, but almost). Its a good experiment for me either way tho...
Adrian
So my starters are at 100% hydration, so 150g starter is 75g flour + 75g water.
so 75g flour + 350g white + 150g rye is 575g flour.
water: 75g in the starter + 350g is 425.
That gives us 73% overall hydration. Yes, a bit wet and I've obviously forgotten to add in water in the starter when doing the calculation (else with just 350g it's 60% hydration).
Bother. Sorry. That's twice in the past 24 hours I've oopsed a calculation. I'll stick to spreadsheets in future.
However - it's still bakable - if not too late, you can do some stretch & folds (use wet hands), then transfer into a bowl, cover and put in a cool place overnight - repeat the stretch & folds in the morning, into the tin, prove it - but probably not for long and bake it hot.
-Gordon
Math is hard man. I end up with slack dough all the time because I can't get the numbers right.
I add a dusting flour during the stretch and fold to get it back closer to where it should be.
I'm just going over the numbers here, and there is something I do not understand. I get your mix to be 77% hydration:
150g starter @ 100% = 75g flour 75g water
so 75g flour + 350g white + 150g rye + 75g flour ("then top that up with 75 flour +") = 650g flour
water: 75g in the starter + 350g + 75g ("then top that up.....) = 500g water
= 77%
So the goal for your mix is 60%?
Crumb shot shortly. Thanks for your help!
Adrian
However...
You take 150g from the starter jar. That has 75g flour + 75g water.
You put 75g flour and 75g water back in the jar - then that's out of the way and not a consideration until the next time you use it to make bread.
To the 150g of starter, you add 350g white and 150g Rye. That now gives us 75 + 350 + 150 = 575g flour.
To this is added 350g water plus the 75g water in the starter from the jar is 425g.
The hydration is the percentage of water to flour: 425/575*100 = 74%
Where I went wrong originally when I was aiming for 60% was working out that 350g of water was needed to make it 60%, but then adding on the 75 in the starter rather than taking it away.
I think what you've done above is that you've added in the jar top-up weights to the main calculation - that's not part of this mix, so you shouldn't count it.
Recap:
Total flour in mix is starter / 2 + all the flours
Total water in mix is starter / 2 + all the waters.
Hydration is Twater / Tflour * 100 %
And we don't forget to top-up the starter that lives in the fridge (if that's where you keep it!)
-Gordon
Right! I thought you added an additional amount to the bread mix (as I did). But we are clear now! :-)
water amount right in the steaming pan. Just fill it up to last the steaming period and take it out of the oven after the 10-12 minutes of steaming. Opening the door will also exhaust all the steam in the oven which is what you want.,
Happy Baking
Right! thanks!
Here is the result of Gordon's mix. I think it turned out splendid!
So after your note about the high hydration, I took the advice to add some flower with the stretch and folds this morning. Then it took about 4 hours to double in size. Baked in max oven at about 220 with a tray of water. After 12 minutes removed the tray and turned down to about 200. Baked until centre registered 95 degrees (another 40 minutes). Perhaps this extra long bake from yours was due to the extra hydration?
Leaving it to sit as long as I am able before I bite into it...
It certainly looks fine on the outside.. Personally while what folks say about letting it go stone cold, I have problems waiting too - I'd have cut into it by now :-)
Don't forget to post the crumb shot..
So - lessons to learn - I need to double-check my calculations on days when I'm feeling mathematically challenged (and you'd never guess my 'day job' is a software engineer!)
And so a little more water in your next mix, but no-where as much as in that one...
Cut it - get some button on it - enjoy it :-)
-Gordon
It looks a little sticky, but its miles from the previous loaf. I also think that internal temp suggestion is great. Motivated me to keep the loaf baking until it was ready. If you have any thoughts on why my last rise took 4 hours, I'd be keen to hear. Could my starter not be as "strong" as it should be? It's also got a less than sour taste to it...
Could not wait more than an hour for the cut... :)
Enjoy it - and in 2-3 days time it'll be great toast - if there's any left :-)
Not sure about the final proof time - I'm sure your starter is working fine though. And less sour? Personally I prefer it that way myself, but who knows!
-Gordon
Your bread looks (and no doubt, tastes) great! You two provided a wonderful example of what we can accomplish by working together. Thanks for sharing with each other and with all of us!!!
Cathy
All credit goes to Gordon. Learnt alot.
Adrian
a sandwich deli rye can get but .......waiting at least 2 hours would be much better for slicing and the next day will be more sour too - no matter when you slice it - if it lasts that long.
Happy baking
All in all much better! That loaf will not last long.
The top crust looks great but a tiny bit dried or tight, most likely happening while it rises.
Might want to cover with an empty bread pan or damp towel while it rises before scoring and baking. :)
Or pop your tin into a clear plastic bag and tie it shut. Extra large tie handle freezer bags work a treat.
I just enjoyed some of my next loaf that I baked last night and let sit on the counter overnight. It was tasty, but there was no crunch of the crust that I enjoy so much. For me its the crunchy crust that really makes the bread. This crunch seems to disappear within about 6 hours of baking making the crust more chewy than crunchy.
I've made baguettes before and perhaps this is the direction I'd like to move - if its the crust I want, I get a much higher crust:crumb ratio. The only problem is that I find them messy and fiddly to make - but that's just a factor of my inexperience I guess.
Adrian
What will happen is that with higher hydration loaves is that the moisture inside will slowly work out and that's what is making the crust go soft after a few hours.
Baguettes stale quite quickly due to their small size and high surface area - you get the initial crunchy crust, then they might soften for a bit, then harden up again as they stale..
You can help keep the loaf crustier longer by baking it a bit more, or turning the heat off and letting it sit inside for another 10-15 minutes. (or turn the heat off and leave the door open a crack, etc.) This just crispens up the crust at the expense of internal moisture - but if it's going to be eaten in a day or 2, it might do the trick for you.
Back to baguettes - watch last weeks GBBO if you've not watched it :-) It was the technical challenge. They are on my "must improve" list of things to do. The ones I make are OK, but could be better..
-Gordon
..is my new favourite. Here are the results with Gordon's recipe. It tastes outstanding! Using a Dutch oven just makes all the difference. 245c for 30 minutes, then lid off for another 20.... ala Ken Forkish.
A big difference from the first picture at the top! :)