The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Enough is enough?

hisreputation's picture
hisreputation

Enough is enough?

Just started venturing in to the brave new (to me!) world of sourdough bread.  After a co-worker with minimal baking experience successfully made some, I thought I should give it a go.  Success has been a bit more elusive for me.

When do you decide to completely pitch the starter, and start over?

Last Sunday evening (7/26) I assembled my starter according to the instructions on the King Arthur Flour website: 4oz (by weight) flour and 4oz water.  I used white whole wheat flour.  I continued to follow the instructions, although I missed the first day of double feeding and only fed once.  I kept it in a glass dish, lightly covered with saran wrap, and began storing it in the oven part-way through the week.  By Sunday (8/2) I had some minimal bubbles, but absolutely no doubling or rising of any kind. 

Sunday evening: I purchased some regular whole wheat flour and used that for the evening feeding.  Monday morning: I skipped the AM feeding and saw some teeny, tiny bubbles within the mixture--nothing on top.  Monday evening: I again used whole wheat flour for the feeding.  Tuesday AM: skipped the feeding.  Tuesday PM: fed with all-purpose flour.  Wednesday AM: no activity.

What to do?  Pitch it, or keeping feeding and hoping for the best?  I started another one (recipe from Serious Eats), and it even seems to be struggling. 

BTW, I'm in Austin, TX where the temps have been in the upper 90s to low 100s.  It is pretty humid here, though.  Our house A/C is set to 78ish.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Feed it whole wheat, thicken nit up some and be patient.  Let it show some activity before feeding it again.  Why people recommend such huge amounts of flour to make a starter is beyond me.  You could take 20 g of the starter you have and feed it 20 g or flour and water on the side and wait for it to do something and then hot have to waste so much flour needlessly.

If it doesn't work use Debra Winks's pineapple juice method found in this site.

Keep your fingers crossed.

hisreputation's picture
hisreputation

I've been giving it a little extra heat by leaving the oven light on for several hours at a time.  How concerned do I need to be about it getting too warm?  I was actually thinking about putting it in the garage to keep it at a more constant, but overall warmer, temp.

I've also seen some methods that recommend stirring it throughout the day.  Seems I should avoid this because it would interrupt the rising, yes?

I saw that pineapple juice method, and almost used it for my second starter!  That's not something I could add to this one, right?  I'd need to start completely over?

Thanks!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

is 92 F which is fine for LAB but nit as good for yeast.  78-82 is better for yeast.  Like Ford said, a bit if acid to lower the pH is good in the beginning to control the wee beasties that aren't acid tolerant.  The sourdough starter will eventually get more acidic and keep out the bad yeast and LAB that can't handle it

The biggest problem people have is that they don't use whole grain flour, feed it too much and too often which reduces the acid in the mix as a result which just slows things down, they make it too wet so the CO2 bubbles just rise and burst on the surface rather than making the starter rise in volume, the temperature is too cold and they don't have patience.

You probably just need to thicken up the mix with some flour dn see what happens.  No need to feed it again until it shows some lift after being this far along.

Arjon's picture
Arjon

my first attempt at making a starter was with AP and filtered water. I don't remember exactly, but it took at least a week and a half to become active and more time after that to stabilize. 

So, I'd guess yours will come around before long. If you want to try another method in the meantime, nothing wrong with that. You can limit how much flour you use by scaling down. 

Ford's picture
Ford

Using pineapple juice as the liquid instead of water is a great way to get started.  The pH of the pineapple juice is the key, it keeps some other microbes from developing and slowing down the process.  Patience is the other key.  Dabrownman is on track.

Ford

Ford's picture
Ford

Using pineapple juice as the liquid instead of water is a great way to get started.  The pH of the pineapple juice is the key, it keeps some other microbes from developing and slowing down the process.  Patience is the other key.  Dabrownman is on track.

Ford

wildcat's picture
wildcat

I like rye flour for new starters. Once they are active, I transition to wheat. (I'm in Austin too :-)

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

beat Hamelman's rye and water stater method for pumperniklel 5 days later. From that you can make any bread by using what ever grain you like for the levain and resulting bread..

The method can be found here Finally! Dark Pumpernickel!! and the pumpernickel here Are you ready? Part 2 of the pumpernickel....

.

hisreputation's picture
hisreputation

It can get pretty toasty in my oven with the light on, thus the on and off bit I've been doing.  The whole wheat flour definitely thickened it up, and I think that was part of the solution.  The all-purpose mixture would be thick-ish when I initially fed, but then turn soupy 12 hours later. 

I've seen some definite rise since posting this morning!  At what point in the rise/deflate cycle do I feed?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

and WW then..... feed it every 12 hours. White flour ones you can feed every 24 hours  Once it matures in a month you can treat it like this if it is a rye (or WW one. for 12 weeks) 

No Muss No Fuss Starter

Happy Baking 

doughooker's picture
doughooker

When do you decide to completely pitch the starter, and start over?

When it goes moldy. Serously.

I'm no fan of pineapple juice. The old-time bakers in the Pyrenees didn't need or use it so why do you? How do you plan to get the pineapple taste out of your bread? The leucs (spoilage bacteria) will subside without it. Water is all you need, just like the old-timers used to do. Don't be afraid to stir it once per day.

After a week or 10 days you should pick up a yeasty aroma. It will no longer smell like wet flour or wallpaper paste. I pay no attention to expansion, volume, rise, etc. The yeasty aroma tells all.

The biggest problem people have is that they don't use whole grain flour

I use white bread flour and my starters get going just fine when I make a new one, so I have to disagree with you that it's the "biggest problem". I had a great deal of difficulty at first using whole wheat flour and finally got my starter going when I switched to white. There was a definite reason for my switch to white and it worked out well.

feed it too much and too often which reduces the acid in the mix as a result which just slows things down

We are in agreement here. In addition to the acidity, you're introducing a bunch of uncolonized/uninoculated flour into the mix and generally slowing things down.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

the whole quote is

The biggest problem people have is that they don't use whole grain flour, feed it too much and too often which reduces the acid in the mix as a result which just slows things down, they make it too wet so the CO2 bubbles just rise and burst on the surface rather than making the starter rise in volume, the temperature is too cold and they don't have patience.

I suppose I should have said problems.  I stand by what i said.  People who don't use whole flours have more problems than those who do - we see it all the time here..  But I keep forgetting you are the SD starter expert: - so never mind and I stand corrected Chris :-)

Happy baking even if we have never seen any of it.......;

jcope's picture
jcope

My success has been with rye flour (fresh) and water that has been boiled.  Even ratio flour-to-water.  The first round can sit for a day.  Then replace half with the same ingredients, same ratio.  That can wait a day or so.  You should see activity in the first few days.  I don't think I'd try to keep it warmer than room temperature.  It doesn't really need any help. 

The process is then to keep replacing half, but to start using a bit of white flour, then a bit more and a bit more, until you're feeding once in the morning and once at night with nothing but water and white flour. 

Those organisms want to grow.  If they are there and you keep the cycle going, they will.  That's why there are several ways to do it, because they aren't so particular.  You just need to start with the right flour that has them in abundance.  From what I've read, rye flour is the best choice.  You shouldn't need a lot of it.  Three or four cups at most.

There are alternatives that don't use rye flour, but then the trick is finding something else that has the yeast and bacteria you're after.  Grapes are apparently a good choice.

It's worth it to figure this out.

hisreputation's picture
hisreputation

It's working!  It doubled within 12 hours yesterday.  I think I'm ready to make bread?  I've found a recipe, but it talks about using a maintained starter: one that has been kept in the fridge.  How do I translate that to a fresh one?  Here's a link:
http://www.theclevercarrot.com/2014/01/sourdough-bread-a-beginners-guide/

hisreputation's picture
hisreputation

...within 12 hours yesterday.  I think I'm ready to make bread?  I found a recipe, but it talks about using a maintained starter: one that has been kept in the fridge.  How do I translate that into a fresh one?  Here's a link: http://www.theclevercarrot.com/2014/01/sourdough-bread-a-beginners-guide/

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Well unless you wish to build a starter everytime they are always maintained. Is the recipe you wish to follow in that link you've given? My post below refers to that one. If not, can you post the recipe?

Some recipes ask for mature starter which is what you've been doing with every feed. Mature = fed, risen and peaked.

Not all recipes rely on mature starter (or more accurately "recently" matured starter). One can use it straight from the fridge but will take longer. But if a recipe specifically asks for mature or active starter then do as below.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

AKA mature starter. Which means one that has recently been fed and peaked.

Pulling starter from the fridge that was fed a week ago is not active starter or "recently" matured starter.

Both can make bread but a mature starter will be quicker. If the recipe asks for mature starter then the rest of the recipe will take this into account and the timings will be more suited to the recipe (although one still has to go by feel as everyone's starter behaves differently, it's a guide).

 

Ingredients
  • 5.35 oz / 150g active, fed starter
  • 8.80 oz / 250g water, preferably filtered
  • .90 oz / 25g olive oil
  • 17.65 oz / 500g bread flour (not all purpose)
  • .35 oz / 10g fine sea salt
  • fine ground cornmeal, for dusting

 

So it's asking for 150g mature starter which you'll need to prepare.

Now if you have been feeding your starter everyday and you have enough (with some spare of course) then you're good to go. If not... then you'll need to build enough to go into the recipe.

I keep mine in the fridge. So what I would do is prepare the 150g. But i'll have a lot of freedom of expression here as long as at the end of the day I have enough and it's matured by the time I wish to start. Some examples...

1. 50g starter + 50g water + 50g flour or 1:1:1 - if not fed in a while then will take about 12 hours max.

2. 30g starter + 60g water + 60g flour or 1:2:2 - will take a bit longer but will result in the same 150g starter @ 100% hydration. I think this also encourages more flavour.

3. 20g starter + 65g water + 65g flour 0r 1:3:3 (near enough) - will take a bit longer and will encourage more flavour.

 

You get the idea.

hisreputation's picture
hisreputation

Yes, the recipe is linked.  The science behind sourdough tends to make my head spin.  :)  So you plan on mixing up the bread after the starter peaks?  I'm just wondering if I should pull my starter (last fed yesterday morning around 7:00) and mix, or if I should feed, wait for rise and then mix.  It doubled at the last feeding and has mainted the height.  Beginner questions, I'm sure.  Thanks for the help!   

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

There are so many ways and they're all correct :)

Ask 3 bakers and get 3 answers (or possibly even 4 haha)

Basically instead of adding commercial yeast the yeast comes in form of flour + water. That's it.

Takes longer then commercial yeast but the process is the same. Mix the dough, develop the gluten, bulk ferment, knock back and shape, final proof and bake. That's it.

Now you have a recipe which asks for 150g mature starter @ 100% hydration.

Well we've discussed that mature means fed, risen and peaked. As long as you get mature starter that is 100% hydration and is built with the correct flour  into your dough the world is your oyster.

You could feed your starter and time it that it has matured for when you wish to start baking.

You can take some off from your starter and feed that. Which is good if your starter is one kind of flour and you wish to build with another.

Don't worry if you don't catch it down to the exact second! When you first start follow the recipe as close as possible but naturally after you get to "know" sourdough you'll be more flexible. Instructions are made to not be flexible but just remember that going by feel is part of baking.

What might be a good thing to do is to take off some of your starter and feed that as a preferment to go into your bread. This has advantages such as not making a mistake and using all of it and as we've discussed you can build to other specs.

So if your starter when fed at 1:1:1 generally peaks at 12 hours then take off 50g and feed it 50g water + 50g flour and aim to do this 12 hours before you wish to start to bake. You'll get to know how your starter behaves the more you use it.

Another good tip is while the recipe says "so many stretch and folds" developing the gluten is really important. So when first forming the dough feel free to give it a good kick start by giving it a good old fashioned knead for 10 minutes and then carry on as the recipe wishes.

jcope's picture
jcope

Everything I say below is based on my own experience, and a bit of dabbling in the science, and some of my own scientific-like experimentation with varying temperature and ingredient ratios.  Others on here have gone farther with these things than I have.

I define "beginner" as someone who hasn't yet achieved predictable, acceptable loaves of bread using only sourdough starter as leavening (I would say that sour tasting bread should not be a goal for a beginner).

HOW MATURE AT MIXING TIME?  The timing for when to mix after having fed the starter is something I haven't experimented with.  I tend to use mine around the time when I would have fed it anyway.  I think you can use it earlier than that.  The key will be consistency, because a freshly fed starter is going to be roughly half as potent (depending on your feeding ratios) as one that has peaked.  I think I'd recommend mixing at peak or after for the beginner.  That's only because from one time to the next the starter will have the same potency, and you can look to other factors to explain differing results.

IS REFRIGERATED STARTER IMPORTANT?  Whether the starter was kept in the refrigerator is not relevant to the beginner.  With respect to the starter the refrigerator is useful for two things: 1) starter management, and 2) biasing development of lacto-bacteria versus yeast.  The starter management aspect is just taking advantage of the slower activity of the organisms in a cold environment, and so that the starter doesn't need to be fed so often.  The latter seems to be a way for some to try to get the starter itself to produce more sour tasting bread, but I haven't ever tried this.  For the beginner, a refrigerated starter is not superior to one maintained at any other temperature.  Assuming they have both been fed as needed.  My starter, kept at 65F performs well being fed morning and night, every 12 hours.  The same starter kept refrigerated should perform the same being fed every 150-160 hours.

ACCOUNTING FOR TEMPERATURE IS A MUST
With all bread, but especially with sourdough bread, the temperature during the fermentation period is probably the least emphasized factor in the quality of the results.  It's generally ignored.  Assuming everything else is equal, compared to bread fermented at 65 degress, bread fermented in the refrigerator will take 13 times longer to ferment to the same degree, at 57 degrees will take twice as long, at 70 degrees about 70% as long, and at 76 degrees it will take about 1/2 the time.  I have 9.5 hours fermentation time at 65 degrees as a baseline, based on the recipe I normally use.  In my kitchen he same loaf that was a success in January would be a total flop in January.  I bought an inexpensive wine chiller big enough to hold the large mixing bowls and a digital thermometer to keep inside it.  

NEVER KNEAD THE BREAD
I haven't established a threshold, but below maybe 60 degrees, gluten forms on its own.  You don't have to do a thing after mixing.  Above that temperature, occasional stretching and folding during the fermentation is probably necessary.  Actual kneading would be risky.  Maybe there is another hotter threshold that requires the forced gluten development that comes from kneading, but I haven't tried warm fermentation.  Others have, who mostly want to get more sour flavor from their bread.  They probably know better than I do.

jcope's picture
jcope

Edit: In my kitchen he same loaf that was a success in January would be a total flop in July, at room temperature and without a change to the timing.

hisreputation's picture
hisreputation

Well, I finally baked my first loaf of sourdough several weekend back.  The flavor was quite sour, but the rise was absolutely pathetic.  The starter was doubling itself within twelve hours, but I think my timing was off when I actually mixed everything up.  It was also very, very thick, and I think that led to the whole dough being too dry. 

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

What was the recipe and your method.

hisreputation's picture
hisreputation
AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

So recipe is...

 

150g mature starter

250g water

25g olive oil

500g bread flour

10g fine sea salt

 

This is a 57% hydration dough (which is quite low for your American flours) but there is 25g olive oil. So even if you take into account the oil (which one doesn't when calculating hydration or not completely atleast) it's still only 60% which will be ok for European flours but still on the low side for American flours.

I'd change this a tad. Up the hydration and miss out the oil for now.

Now for your starter. If you miss it peaking it's not the end of the world. It should still work even if you need to increase the bulk fermentation a tad. Unless your starter has been out for a day or two after peaking at room temperature that little time won't be the make or break. Here's what I suggest...

 

RECIPE:

500g bread flour

300g warm water

10g salt

150g mature starter

 

STARTER BUILD:

 

24 hours before: mix 10g starter + 15g water + 15g bread flour and leave that to bubble up through the day.

Night before: mix 30g from above (10g is lost through fermentation) + 65g water + 65g bread flour

 

Will be ready for next morning...

 

METHOD:

1. In your dough bowl mix the 500g flour + 300g water. Cover and leave to rest for 30minutes.

2. Sprinkle the salt over the dough followed by the starter and combine. Wet your hand under cold water to make it easier then squish and fold the dough till it all comes together.

3. Knead the dough till it becomes silky smooth and when you press it, it pop straight up (about 10-15min)

4. Cover and bulk ferment till doubled. Should take a few hours.

5. After it has doubled then turn the dough out onto a lightly floured surface. Knock the larger bubbles out but don't deflate completely. Shape into your banneton for final proofing.

6. Final proof till ALMOST doubled. Can't give an exact time but around 2 hours ish. Keep an eye on it.

7. Pre-heat oven and pizza stone or dutch oven (whatever your method is).

8. Tip dough out, score and bake.