The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

In search of height

Colin_Sutton's picture
Colin_Sutton

In search of height

So, last week I posted the first sourdough loaf that I wasn't too embarrassed to upload on here.

So far, my sourdough experiences, including today, have produced loaves which spread as much as they rise.

I would really like to produce something more like a recent posting by KathyF, who not only uploaded an inspiring photo of her variation of 1-2-3 Sourdough, but kindly provided her exact quantities and method in the thread on request.

I can cheerfully say that KathyF must have an amazing level of skill, which completely alludes me.  I want beautiful boules like hers, not discs like mine :-(

Adapting KathyF's quantities, I came up with the following and made two loaves (quantities include the final build of the 58% hydration levain):

  • All-purpose flour: 96%
  • White wholemeal flour: 4%
  • Water: 65%
  • Salt: 2%
  • Diastatic malt: 1%
  • Seed starter: 7%

Anyway, it was Friday evening, I’d had a horrible week and the thing that was keeping me going was the thought of some weekend baking.

Everything was mixed, some stretch & folds done and bulk fermentation was almost finished by midnight… and then I fell asleep, only to wake up 4 hours later to bubbling dough resembling the moster from The Quatermass Experiment in my Brød & Taylor folding proofer.

That dough ended up in the trash.

I didn't have enough spare levain from the previous build, so mixed some more (in a sleepy 4am haze), left it to ferment and started over the following morning.  Next time I think I will just have to retard the bulk dough overnight, as this isn't the first time this has happened.

Here's some notes on the second attempt, including variations from KathyF's version:

Method followed [updated since original post]:

  1. Autolyse for 30 minutes;
  2. 10 minutes in the KitchenAid mixer with the dough hook on a low speed;
  3. Bulk fermentation at 27°C (80°F) for 3.5 hours (approximately 37% increase in volume);
  4. Two sets of stretch and folds at 45 minute intervals in the early stages;
  5. Pre-shape, 20 minute bench-rest, form into two boules, place in bannetons sprinkled with brown rice flour, proved as follows:
  6. Prove 1st loaf at 27°C (80°F) for 3 hours;
  7. Prove 2nd loaf for 1 hour at 27°C (80°F) then retard for 4 hours at 4°C (40°F);
  8. Place each loaf in a La Couche, pre-heated to 260°C (500°F);
  9. Dropped the oven temperature to 230°C (445°F);
  10. Bake for approximately 20 minutes covered, and then 25-30 minutes uncovered.

I'm still finding dough at these hydrations tricky to handle, though my shaping of the final loaves was a bit more confident than last week, and I could feel the skin round the dough tightening during the final shape.

The loaf proved at room temperature was rather badly scored and didn't produce a mass of oven spring.  The loaf retarded in the fridge was easier to score, and I baked it at a slightly lower temperature and a little less time, with a fraction more spring.

Instead of the lofty boules I had hoped for, I still produced proved - but fairly flat loaves - though they are risen and taste great, have have a slightly glossy crumb.

When will I come close to the beautiful round boule I was aiming for?

  • Is the hydration far too high for European flours?
  • Am I proving too long?
  • Have I just not learned to create enough tension when shaping?

Comments and suggestions from readers last week were really helpful, so please don’t hesitate to chime-in - you guys are very generous with your advice.

Happy baking! Colin.

PS: I've started also been Tweeting some of my bakes from @ctwangel - I'll follow back bakers from here who also Tweet.

Comments

FrugalBaker's picture
FrugalBaker

Hi Colin, I am only giving comments based on my personal experience and my guess is yes, you have over-proved your dough!

First off, I live in Asia and my indoor temperature ranges from 27~29 dc, daily. When I first started baking, I did not understand on why I could not churn out beautiful breads like those on TFL. Then someone told me something and it was a life changing advice...

I believe you live in the UK and it's summer now. So it is hot....very much like what I am experiencing here everyday. So in this case, you have to try to slow things down. You got to do things the opposite way. 24 dc is the idea time for fermentation but anything above that, means things are moving very quickly.

Here are some options you might wanna consider:

  1. Reduce the quantity of levain
  2. Reduce proofing time. Try keeping the entire process from autolyse to final shaping to not more than 3 hours. 
  3. Cold fermentation (keep dough in the fridge overnight after final shaping and proving). Not only that you can avoid the over-proving problem, your bread will taste better. 
  4. Creating surface tension is vital when it comes to shaping as this is the step that will determine how your dough rises.

I have had so many bad bakes and learned through the hard way. I hope these pointers would be helpful to you. You may also check out my blog entries just to get some ideas on how I overcome those problems.

 

p/s: Your bake doesn't look too bad to me....happy baking there.

 

Regards,

Sandy

Colin_Sutton's picture
Colin_Sutton

Hi Sandy, Thanks ever so much for your thoughtful comments, and the kind remark on these loaves.  It would be nice to think that you have given me some life-changing advice too.

After posting this blog, I re-read KathyF's description, an realised that I'd missed one very important detail. She says: 

Since I wanted to wait until it started to cool off in the evening, I put the loaf in the fridge for 2 to 3 hours...

D'oh! That must be down to me reading things on an iPad while baking and not paying proper attention. My bad.

I'm going to follow your suggestions using the same recipe - it's also a lot cooler today.  I also wonder whether I miss-measured the water at autolyse stage - I've just done this again and the dough is much firmer than I remember from yesterday.

I like the idea of retarding overnight, and have tried it once before.  I didn't poke-test my first loaf, but did the second, and it was over-proofed, even though it had been retarded.

Your advice is really appreciated, and I am in awe of the loaf that you baked this morning - it looks amazing.

Many thanks, Colin.

KathyF's picture
KathyF

Especially in warm weather. It does sound like that your final loaves were over-proved. What I have started doing in this warmer weather is do my mixing and bulk fermenting in the evening. Then I shape my loaves, put them in the bannetons and let them sit on the counter for half an hour. Then I put them in plastic bags and pop them into the fridge overnight. In the morning I take them out and let them sit for a couple of hours before I bake them. How long you let them sit depends on how much they rose in the fridge overnight. Just keep a close eye on them.

Colin_Sutton's picture
Colin_Sutton

Hi KathyF, Many thanks for your advice and apologies for having made such a poor job of your amazing loaf.  I'm having another stab at this using suggestions that people have made today. I'll update later. Best wishes, Colin.

FrugalBaker's picture
FrugalBaker

How to tell if a dough is over-proved? You may do the finger poking test. If the dough bounces back gently,then it is ready to be baked. If it doesn't, give it a bit more time. But if the dough appear 'wobbly'....filled with big bubbles (you can usually see and feel them), then it is definitely over-proved! 

I happen to bake a loaf that is just nicely proved this morning and had to bake a second one this afternoon. The top of the dough had some big bubbles on it and I quickly put in in the freezer while waiting for my oven to heat up. I was lucky as the bottom of the dough was fine still. Here's a picture of it :

 

It was a close call, very lucky indeed!

FrugalBaker's picture
FrugalBaker

Colin. Just glad that I was able to help. Bread baking is a very challenging venture, especially with sourdough. I hope you will have better luck for your next bake, just don't give up!

If you find the dough too sticky to handle in the beginning, try working it in a mixer for 5 mins on a medium speed, then do a good 10 mins for French slap and fold. Indication of a good gluten formation Is when the dough doesn't seem to stick to your hands that much and feels more 'cushy',almost like a soft sponge. Then, give a few session and stretch and fold too. Oil or wet hands are really useful when it comes to tacky dough. 

Looking forward to your next post :) Good day....

 

Sandy 

Colin_Sutton's picture
Colin_Sutton

Hi again, Sandy. Very many thanks. Definitely not going to give up - I'm not a quitter, and I really do want to get this right. We have just eaten some of these loaves with lunch and it scored points for taste and texture (it was nice and chewy!) I just want to produce something that looks half-decent. Thanks for the extra tips. Best wishes, Colin.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Develop the gluten more. Two stretch and folds doesn't seem like enough. Even when following a recipe which recommends however many stretch and folds you still have to go by feel. My own experience is... When forming the dough giving it a jump start by kneading it for 10 minutes then carrying on with the recipe and recommended stretch and folds produces a good oven spring. Or you could incorporate more stretch and folds, instead of kneading, if you feel the dough needs it. Whatever you do try and go by feel. A good way to judge if it is ready is if you lunch the dough and gently pull it, it feels elastic. 

Also remember that high hydration doughs will struggle more with height then lower hydration doughs. And on top of that our European flours generally need less water. And last but not least is if you're not using a Dutch Oven or a La Cloche you will struggle to introduce steam into your oven and risk it crusting over too quickly inhibiting oven spring. I don't know what kind of oven you have but with my experiences with trial and error at a free standing loaf the following might help. 

My oven has a top and bottom element plus a fan. All three can be toggled to be on or off independently so I do the following. I heat the oven up as hot as possible, which is 250C, with both elements and the fan. When I put the dough in I'll turn the fan and top element off so all the heat is coming from under the dough. And then I'll turn it down to 180C. This way the oven is hot enough but the fan and top element won't dry it out and the bottom element isn't too hot so won't burn the bread (if you have a pizza stone I guess this last point won't be a problem so you can keep the heat up). Then 10minutes before the end I'll turn the top element and fan back on, turn the heat up to 210C for the nice crust finish. 

Hope this helps.

- Abe.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

A good way to judge if it is ready is if you pinch the dough and gently pull it, it feels elastic. 

Colin_Sutton's picture
Colin_Sutton

Many thanks for all your detailed advice, Abe. I omitted to mention 10 minutes of kneading after adding starter and salt - the two lots of stretch and folds were in addition to that. I've amended the original posting accordingly.

I have a new oven, which has similar functionality as yours, and pretty much followed the same technique, using a La Cloche. It took me a while to work this out for myself, I have to say. I have an oven thermometer in there too.

I'm having another go, and so far things are going much better than last time. Wish me luck!

Best wishes and happy baking! Colin.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Ahh if using a La Cloche I believe the above tricks of the trade are not needed. I have adapted it to get around doing it free standing. I don't wish to advise about something I have no experience with. Best of luck and look forward to more bakes.

- Abe

Colin_Sutton's picture
Colin_Sutton

Hi Abe, I still think your advice holds good for using a La Cloche - when the lid comes off you still have 20 or so minutes of baking. I have found that the top element browns the loaves too quickly. Just using bottom heat seems to work.  Best, Colin.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

What I would do then is keep your oven on high while the lid is in so you get the internal temperature right. Don't worry about burning or drying out as the La Cloche creates steam inside. Then when the lid comes off turn switch to the tricks of the trade like you do. 

Either that or try this... Keep on high and only take lid off 10 minutes towards the end. I believe that is the procedure when using a Dutch oven. 

It's all trial and error till you find the magical formula that suits you. 

- Abe

Colin_Sutton's picture
Colin_Sutton

That would make perfect sense. I am still getting used to this oven, and I seem to get a drastic drop in temperature over a few minutes when switching from fan to convection. I make really good pastry, but have had near disasters with this happening previously in the 180°C range.  I'm figuring that if I get a temperature drop while the lid is on the Cloche, there will be retained heat in the clay to even things out. Your advice - as always - is really appreciated.  Colin :-)

Colin_Sutton's picture
Colin_Sutton

How about this, then? Many thanks to FrugalBaker, AbeNW11, and KathyF for all the advice earlier today.

I made another loaf using exactly the same recipe as above, bulk fermented and proved at 24°C and for a much shorter period.

The dough was much easier to handle, and I think my tension on final shaping was much better. The boule came out of the banneton a little on the oval side, but, hey! It was much, much, higher!  Yeah!

I will definitely use an overnight retard on occasions in the future, only this evening I was impatient to see if I could make a boule, rather than a disc.

I'll try and post a blog about it tomorrow once it has cooled, with a crumb-shot.

Thanks for all you help, guys.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

turn in when your post arrived. That is one mighty fine looking loaf. Love the colour contrast and great oven spring. 

Bon Appetite!

- Abe

Colin_Sutton's picture
Colin_Sutton

Thanks, Abe. Can you tell I was so excited that I had to post a photo and a message as soon as it came out of the oven? Good night and thanks for you help. Colin.

KathyF's picture
KathyF

That looks gorgeous. Can wait to see you blog tomorrow with the crumb shot!

Colin_Sutton's picture
Colin_Sutton

Hi KathyF, Many thanks. Not quite up to your original, but a step in the right direction :-)  Best, Colin.

FrugalBaker's picture
FrugalBaker

Looking good to me...keep up with the good work Colin. 

Colin_Sutton's picture
Colin_Sutton

Hi Sandy, thanks ever so much. I had to prove to myself that I could do it. All very different to working with commercial dried yeast, but it's making sense. Thanks for your help. Best wishes, Colin.