The Fresh Loaf

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VERY basic questions

plumhollow's picture
plumhollow

VERY basic questions

I have tried to change to 100% sourdough starters for my whole wheat breads but am getting VERY frustrated.   I am trying to make 100% whole wheat (red fife ground fresh from the berries).   I start my starter from the mother at night plus I soak the dough (water, salt, sprouted wheat, and lately a touch of honey) at night too.   In the morning I combine, rise and bake. 

The dough seems to want to spread out rather than rise.   Buns or free standing loaves are very disappointing!  Loaves in tins are fine although not as nicely rounded on the tops as I would like.  Adding more flour does not solve the problem.  I have tried adding a mash to the dough and it is even worse (although I like the texture). 

I don't want to add vital wheat gluten or white flour because I bake the red fife bread for customers who have sensitivities to hybrid wheat.   My bread is sold at an organic farmer's market so I have to stick with organic ingredients.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

1. No need to autolyse for longer than 30 minutes. Not really anything to do with the issue but just thought I'd address that.

2. Will be easier to answer if you post your recipe and method.

plumhollow's picture
plumhollow

Starter:  (I use it for two batches of bread but only take 800g for this recipe):  200 g mother starter, 960 g red fife wheat, 640 g water

Soaker: 250g red fife sprouts blended with 200g water, 1 Tbsp salt and 1 Tbsp honey (recent addition).   1500g red fife wheat flour 800g water.   Mix sprout mixture and rest of soaker together and soak overnight.   I soak to soften the grain but also to start to break it down to make it more digestible.   That (plus convenience) is why I soak so long.

morning:  800 g starter + all soaker + 200g red fife flour.

rise, divide to 5 loaves, rise again and bake

Preheat oven (regular kitchen oven) to 550 with pie plate of water on bottom rack.   put in loaves, reducing heat to 450.  Bake 20 minutes reduce heat to 400 bake another 20 minutes.

Sorry, I have not figured out bakers percentages especially with starter/soaker method.

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Starter: 800g at 69.81% hydration

Soaker: 250g red fife sprouts + 200g water [side note: drain excess water]

Flour: 100%

Water: 53.33%

Salt: 0.9% - 1.13% depending on salt used [side note: should be 1.5% - 2%]

Honey: 1.42%

Levain: 53%

+ Soaker

_______________________________________________

 

1: Only do the soaker overnight

2. Autolyse 1500g flour + 800g water for 30min

3. Drain Soaker and add to autolyse

4. Up the salt to 22.5g - 30g

5. Sprinkle salt over autolyse and soaker followed by levain

6. Incorporate

7. Knead for a good 15-20min till you see gluten formation

8. Your levain percentage is quite high so watch the bulk fermentation time very carefully! don't know how long you're doing at the moment but might need to be shortened.

9. Knock back and shape for final proofing. Again, watch this carefully. Don't over-do it. try aiming for 90% and not doubled.

10. Bake in pre-heated oven.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Salt controls the yeast. 1.5% - 2% is within normal range. The amount you add falls well below this. and on top of that your starter percentage is on the high side. If you bulk ferment for too long then you'll turn your dough into starter. They'll be gluten breakdown. Hence your problem.

Up the salt.

Either decrease the bulk fermentation time or the amount of levain. You might have to rethink this!

Make sure when forming the dough your developing the gluten well.

 

plumhollow's picture
plumhollow

I'll try these changes and see what happens

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

How long was your bulk fermentation?

plumhollow's picture
plumhollow

not sure if I understand correctly what that is.... if it's the rising after the starter has been added to the soaked dough to make one dough it is usually about 3 hours.   I just watch it.  

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Perhaps lessen it a tad. Knead till there is full gluten formation then go into first rise. You might need to knead for a good 15-20min. Then bulk ferment for 2hr 30min giving the dough a turn at 1hr 15min. 

Then knock back, shape and go into final proofing being very careful to not over do it. 90% instead of doubled. 

RoundhayBaker's picture
RoundhayBaker

.. starting again with your basic recipe? Maybe working at your basic wholemeal recipe until you are happy with it. Once it is working well, then add the sprouted wheat and honey?

I agree with Abe that unless, you're using a flour like rye, there's no need for an overnight soak.

BTW, salt in your overnight soak is probably not a great idea. You don't want to do anything that inhibits your yeast.

Personally, I think 100% wholewheat is one of the toughest breads to bake. Bread tins are an excellent way to contain the dough, but my attempts at boules - even in Dutch Ovens - were very disappointing. After a bit of research I discovered that the kind of loaves you are describing - good rise, nice round top, even crumb - are made with 70-80% wholewheat, the remainder being strong bread flour (providing a big dose of gluten).

The Soil Association also approve the use of ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) in UK organic loaves. It works by reacting with an antioxidant called glutathione which (as part of plant immune systems) inhibits yeast development. Hope I got that right. Ascorbic acid breaks down glutathione (present in large amounts in wholewheat flour), so small amount added to the dough apparently makes a huge difference. You're not artificially enriching the dough by adding it because the Vit C is broken down and removed by the reaction which eliminates the glutathione. If I were after a consistent wholemeal loaf I would definitely try it.

Hmm, I might just try it anyway and post the results.

davidg618's picture
davidg618

Hi, Abe

If you search the Web with questions like "How does wheat bran effect bread dough?" you'll find a large number of food science studies that begin their abstracts with statements such as:

"Abstract

Commercial hard red spring, hard red winter, soft white and durum wheat brans were used to evaluate the particle size effect of wheat bran on bread baking performance and bread sensory quality. Three different particle size bran samples were obtained from each bran by grinding, not by sifting, the bran samples. The bran samples were similar in chemical composition, but different in particle sizes. Results of baking experiments showed that breads containing fine bran had lower specific loaf volume and darker crumb colour than breads containing coarse or medium size bran. ... "© 1999 Society of Chemical Industry (bold emphasis added)

Every study I scanned--4 or 5--reports low volume of high percentage content of whole wheat loaves compared to similar all-white flour loaves. It's the nature of the beast.

I make two lower percentage WW sourdough breads: 50%, and 40% routinely. To attain acceptable volume in the 50% formula shaped into free standing batards or boules I initially mix the dough on speed 2 (KitchenAid Pro 600) for ten minutes, followed by three S&F at 45 min. rest intervals. The crumb of the 50% loaf is reasonably open and mature with a few gas pockets approximately 3/8" diameter.The 40% whole wheat dough is treated exactly like my mostly all-white sourdough formula: 4 mins. on speed 2 and 3 S&F. It's volume and crumb are essentially the same as the all-white version.

I autolyse all my lean sourdough doughs (with levain, without salt) for 30 mins. to 45 mins. (1 hour in the refrigerator for doughs I later retard overnight.)

David G

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

I've just been working through the recipe and hope I've contributed some ideas. I'm gonna read through the abstract and see what I can make out of it. I'm not so much into the chemistry part of bread baking. I know how to drive a car but don't know what's going on under the hood :)

I'll delve into it and see if I can make sense of it.

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

breads of late and have discovered that they are quite different than breads made with no sprouted flour.  The enzymatic activity of sprouted flour is much greater than regular flour so the starches are being broken down into sugars much faster in the autolyse with sprouted flour.  So the time you would normally austolyse your dough flour and water will be significantly less with sprouted flour.  An 8 hour overnight soak will only be 2 hours.

I have also found that sprouted flour breads require much less time for ferment and proof as well and they will break down faster if overdone.  I also have to reduce the amount of water in the mix as well.  Here in A where the temperatures in the kitchen are 84 F in the spring, I do a 2 hour autolyse with breads that have 50% or more sprouted flour, 2 hours of a mix of slap and folds and stretch and folds to develop the gluten and them shape, put in baskets and retard for a max of 12 hours with no bulk ferment at all or ,like today, a 1 hour bulk ferment.  My last batch still over proofed in the fridge as I slept with a 1 hour bulk ferment.

It really takes some method and timing changes to keep the dough from turning to goo somewhere during ferment and proof.  But the great taste is worth it once you figure it out.

Happy Baking  

plumhollow's picture
plumhollow

I am not using sprouted grain flour but actually sprouting the wheat berries - soak one day and rinse for 3 days until rootlets start to form.   I whirr these sprouts with water in the blender to break them down into a mash.  The sprouts are quite sweet.