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Retarding dough--is it OK during bulk (1st) fermentation--anyone know?

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

Retarding dough--is it OK during bulk (1st) fermentation--anyone know?

I am teaching a sourdough class in the morning and want to mix the dough and retard it the night before.  I have never done this, although I've refrigerated shaped loaves overnight and successfully baked the loaves the next morning.  Should I do a brief mix, adding the levain to flour & water, then do the autolyse, then add salt and do a short mix, then one stretch and fold after about an hour and then retard the dough?  Or should I just do the autolyse, then add the salt, do a short mix and then retard.  If so, I would take it out of the fridge, let it warm up awhile, do the S&F and then leave it at room temp until it's ready to divide and preshape, shape, etc.  Instinctively I prefer the first option, doing the S&F before retarding.  But I don't really know.

Anyone who's done this, I'd appreciate your take on this.  Thanks!

Joy

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

finished - so 1 hour of bulk ferment on the counter .  Just take it out of the fridge the nest day and let it sit an hour to warm up a bit and then gently shape for a final proof of about 1/1/2 to 2 hours.  This is the way Peter Reinhardt does a lot of his breads.  It is a petty standard way to do it but the crumb won't be as open this way per my experience..  A shaped cold proof seems to give me a more open crumb.

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

Hi dab,

Thanks so much for the reply.  I get the first part, retard an hour after gluten development is finished.  But I'm wondering if I should do the stretch and fold before putting it in the fridge for the bulk ferment.  Yes???   I think I understand the rest about letting it sit an hour after the overnight retardation, then gently shaping it.  Final proof as usual, at room temp (76 dF).

Thanks again!  Good to be back on TFL.

Joy

 

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

3 sets of slap and folds on 20 minute intervals of 8.1.and 1 minute and then 3 sets of stretch and folds from the compass points only also on 20 minute intervals.  Then one hour of bulk ferment on the counter and then into the fridge for a bulk retarded ferment overnight.

Glad to see you back Joy

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

Thanks dab!  I think these instructions sound like one would be hand mixing rather than using the mixer (I use the Bosch Universal Plus).  I can look up "slap and fold" (never saw that one), and I regularly do "stretch and folds," so no problem there.  In this particular recipe (Hamelman's Vermont S'Do with Increased Whole Grain), there's 15% rye and 65% hydration, so he indicates just one stretch and fold at 1 1/4 hours in the original recipe.  The mixer, after the autolyse and salt then added, is to be used for only 1 1/2 to 2 minutes, and the dough is pretty strong and not overly wet.  Another question that pops up is whether I should add 1/4 tsp. instant yeast to the mix before retarding.  I don't think I can set the fridge to much below 40 dF, maybe a little (extra fridge in garage), and I assume about 8-10 hours in the chiller.  Too many questions?  Sorry if so.  But thanks again!

Joy

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

in any SD bread.  I figure the only reason it is there is to speed things up and or they don't trust their SD to be able to do the job.  One thong for sure is that the flavor of the SD bread is compromised since the yeast just speeds up the naturally longer SD ferment and proof.

If using a mixer for a short time like 2 minutes i would just say that takes the place of the first 8 minutes of slap and folds and would just do the 2 one minutes sets 20 minutes apart and then do the stretch and fold an hour and a quarter later like the recipe calls for.  Then I would just put it in the fridge for an overnight cold retard at what ever temperature your fridge happens to be set.   Let it warm up the next morning shape and proof to 85% and then bake probably about 1 and half hours after shaping for a rule of thumb.  That hydration is very low st 65% and I am sure I would bump it to 72% to start but that would mean another set of stretch and folds on 45 minute intervals 

Happy baking

 

 

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

Thanks again for your response, dabrownman  I think that, with such a low hydration, it's like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.  Instead, I would do best to reverse my plan.  That is, do the mix and bulk ferment the day before the class, do the S&F, preshape and shape, and then put the loaves in the fridge overnight.  Then, I can take them out in the a.m. of the class and proceed to bake.  My idea was to teach the mixing and shaping early on, but I can do that in reverse and bake early and then do the mix, autolyse, shaping, proofing later.  We'll have about 3 1/2 hours, so it should work out fine.   I will retard a bulk ferment with another formula with higher hydration, not with a class but just for the sake of learning.  You've been so helpful; thanks!  --Joy  

 

nomolosca's picture
nomolosca

When I retard a bulk ferment, I generally stick the dough in the fridge about 30 minutes before I think the bulk ferment will be finished at room temperature. I then preshape right out of the fridge and do a sort of long bench rest (maybe 30-45 minutes). This usually works fine.

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

Thanks nomolosca, for your reply.  My purpose in retarding is to not have to start the process of mixing dough at 5:30 a.m. in the morning, to prepare for a sourdough class at 9:30, when we want to start dividing, preshaping, shaping, proofing and baking sourdough.  I think the amount of time you retard the dough may not affect the quality of the finished loaf.  My concern is the outcome of the bake and what will happen when I take the dough in bulk out of a night in the fridge and start dividing, preshaping, shaping, etc.  I'll just do it and hope for the best.

Thanks again,

Joy

AlanG's picture
AlanG

David has a number of posts on this topic as he does bulk fermentation in the refrigerator.  Just do a search on it.  I'm getting ready to take my dough out of the refrigerator in about an hour to begin shaping and final proofing.

MicheleV's picture
MicheleV

The answer is yes, you can do bulk fermentation in the refrigerator. I've been doing a lot of it ever since reading Josey Baker's book, "Get Baking - Make Awesome Bread." JB is a master of fermentation. His typical process for a hearth sourdough loaf is to prepare a levain the night before and then mix the final dough (including the salt, as JB's recipes don't call for an autolyse). After mixing, the dough sits for about two hours, during which time it's stretched and folded every 30 minutes. You then can choose the cold bulk fermentation method by placing the dough in the refrigerator for 6 to 24 hours (and possibly longer; I don't have the book in front of me.) After the cold bulk period, you can then shape the dough and do a 24-hour proof in the refrigerator. It's a very convenient method for someone who works and doesn't want to be putting loaves in the oven at midnight.  Oh, and the flavor from that long, cold fermentation is superb.  

Rick D's picture
Rick D

Joy, I retard the dough in the fridge overnight all the time during the initial proofing. I generally do the 40 min autolyse, then mix everything (salt, levain...). Then do 2 or 3 stretch and folds, depending on how the gluten develops, then pop it in the fridge right after the last stretch and fold. Never had a problem and the bread comes out great. My experience is the yeast activity with my starter does not complete shut down at my fridge temp (40 F). You could also get a dedicated fridge or wine cooler and set the temp (say somewhere between 45-55 F) where the bulk proof will continue overnight and be ready to shape the next morning when you take it out.

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

I so appreciate all the replies to my questions.  I tend to be a bit overly cautious when trying something new for me, and it's just a couple of (thank goodness) friends that I'll be teaching sourdough.  If my starter is alive and well, it should be fine I keep telling myself.  But then I wonder--since the recipe has 15% rye flour (Hamelman's Vermont S'dough w/ Increased Whole Grain), should I add 1/4 tsp. instant yeast or will that make it rise too much in the 8 or 9 hours in the fridge?

Thanks once more, dabrownman, nomolosca, AlanG, MicheleV, Rick D.

Joy (aka Joyful)

AlanG's picture
AlanG

if your starter is active.  My batards turned out just fine this morning with really nice oven spring.  Recipe was straight Hamelman Vermont Sourdough except that I did an overnight refrigeration for the bulk fermentation (12 hours).  Did a preshape, final shape with an hour proof time checking to make sure that it was not over proofed and then a bake.  Hamelman calls for some retardation of yeast breads but I've not tried that yet.  There are only so many days in the week! 

My big issue is trying to fine tune the sour tang.  Some days I get it and some days not.

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

I appreciate your follow-up.  Sounds like you've got it nailed; I'll take notes on your method.  You're right, so many days in the week.  As for the sour tang, I like a bite as well, but I also love that sweet wheat fragrance and taste, especially when the loaf starts to cool out of the oven.  It's intoxicating.  So it's a balancing act.  I've been reading a lot about starters and bacteria, acids, and yeasts.  I'm no scientist by a long shot, but I'm beginning to understand a bit more.  I found The Bread Builders by Daniel Wing and Alan Scott very helpful in understanding the complexities of managing a starter (also read Debra Wink's treatise on "the pineapple solution").  I do like a 50/50 bread flour and w/w flour (sometimes with a little rye thrown in) starter better than an all bread flour one.  It's ferments faster, and maybe controlling the acid development (firmer rather than wetter; higher temp., longer time) in the starter and then the levain works well for that sour tang.  Happy baking!  

semolina_man's picture
semolina_man

I made a super tasty and nice looking (IMO) loaf today with dough that was bulk retarded in the fridge overnight.   Recipe was based on Tom Cat's Semolina Filone, but with no durum/semolina, and instead used 50/50 unbleached AP and WW flour in the main dough. 

loaflove's picture
loaflove

Hi there.  I know this is a very old post but I was wondering if I can ask for clarification.   Last night I mixed my dough, did the s&fs and let it bf for a few hours, got tired and put it in the fridge.  It’s been in the fridge for 6-7 hrs.  Do I need to let it come to room temp and let it bf some more since I retarded it? The recipe says to bf for 8 hrs at 21c. Since I retarded it did that almost stop the whole process or slow it down so much that I almost have to let it pick up where I left off at room temp or bf it even longer in the fridge.  Thanks for your input!