Starter declining more and more...
First off, Hi all and thanks for all the information found here which finally enabled me to get a working sourdough starter! Now to my issue: My starter's now almost 3 months old and has been very active and allowed me to bake awesome bread for a while. I've been keeping it at room temperature (between 18 and 25 C, it was cooler in january, warmer now and sometimes I keep it in the living room. I have a thermometer lying next to the jar.). And in all that time have fed it twice a day. Usually in a 1:1:1 ratio, when it was cooler I sometimes used 2:1:1 starter:flour:water, or gave it a bigger refreshment if it was warmer or if I wanted to bake something other than a big loaf of bread (eg for small buns I'd just use what I'd otherwise discard when feeding, and it's been working perfectly fine at first.). I used only whole grain flour the entire time up until now: Over the last 2 weeks the starter's activity slowly declined. Whether I gave it bigger refreshments or not, no difference. With a regular feeding (1:1:1) it would sit there for an hour or two before starting to form bubbles, and 2 weeks ago it took 4 hours to double, now much longer: 6 or more depending on the size of the refreshment, and if I give it a refreshment of more than 1:3:3 starter:flour:water it doesn't even manage to double at all within 12 hours anymore. Also, tiny refreshments (3:1:1 starter:flour:water) or less doubles the dough quickly, but it just doesn't seem to make sense to feed it like this for longer given the temperature... I've split it into 2 jars and tried feeding more in one, and less in the other (to keep it more sour). I also tried switching to white flour instead of whole grain, with which it declined even faster. There's another weird symptom: I fed part of it with rye for a few feedings in a separate jar. It kept its still-slow speed there, and when feeding it whole-wheat again it would double quickly again (2 hours), but then decline again after the next wheat feeding... (I really want a wheat starter, for no particular reason...) So... I'm at a loss here. I'm worried I'm gonna lose my starter. When it was healthy and tasty I dried some of it regularly, so I do have a few older (or younger :p) "backups" around, but I'd very much like to keep the current one alive :( The jars are clean, I haven't switched brands of flour, the tap water has less chlorine than the bottled water I get in stores... I'm starting to feel helpless here... Any suggestions are welcome. :(
Twice a day for 3 months? Are you a baker and/or do you bake every single day?
instead of little feeds which build up spent flour. If not refreshed often then there will be a build up of spent flour and poor quality starter which will begin to go "off". If you refresh your starter everytime you feed it and you feed it twice a day without using it twice a day for baking you're going to need to discard otherwise you'll be building up swimming pools amount. That is why you have chosen just to give it a feed of 2:1:1 because you can't keep up and sometimes even 3:1:1. I think your problem is starter maintenance.
Why don't you keep your starter in the fridge. Take off a small amount and give it a good feed (completely refreshing it), e.g.
20g starter + 40g flour + 40g water.
Allow it to bubble up by 1/3rd and then keep in the fridge.
When it comes to baking just take off a small amount each time and do preferment/s, building up to how much levain you need making sure, each time the ratio is 1:1:1 or higher.
e.g. you need 150g for your bake, so take off...
16g from your starter and feed it 17g flour + 17g water and leave overnight.
Then feed the 50g from above with 50g flour + 50g water, and in a few hours you'll have the 150g asked for. And you've built it up with good feeds giving you a strong and healthy levain.
Then when the starter in the fridge runs low just take it out, bring to room temperature, give it a good feed, allow to bubble up by 1/3rd and return to the fridge.
No discarding with good feeds.
I'm not a baker, I'm an IT student with only a handful of things left to do before getting a degree, and job hunting on the side...
I was experimenting a lot. I'm not baking every day but multiple times a week (2, sometimes 3 loafs during the week, and small buns several times a week depending on how much we eat - also made some for my and my gf's parents, so on average I was using the starter on 5 out of 7 days, and kept the amount small when I wasn't planning on using it the next day, that is until it started to act up like described above and I panicked and fed it in different ways in multiple jars, which is kind of a waste but I don't know what to do...)
My abundance of free time is also coming to an end so soon I won't have a choice but to revive a dried backup, and hope for the best.
refrigeration is the way to go. Will be much easier to handle and you only use the amount you need.
Yeah, I was gonna do that, but I also noticed a development in taste over the weeks (a good one), so my plan was to keep it outside for a while before refrigerating it.
Whole rye starter keeps well in the fridge for a quite a while and I find that boiled water cooled to room temperature is good.
Before beginning my starter, I read in quite a few places not to use tap water due to the chlorine. Some say to leave the tap water out for at least 24 hours, or, like the poster above says, to boil and cool before using tap water. I buy a gallon of spring water once every few months and it does just fine. I find that white flour, actually, gives the most consistent results, perhaps because the whole grain flours have been sitting in transit and on grocery shelves for too long to support a healthy starter. Just a guess on that. I've had uneven starter viability with whole grains.
Chlorine hasn't been an issue till now though. Regardless, I'll do some cooking to have water ready for the next feeding.
(PS: Water analysis: http://www.wien.gv.at/wienwasser/qualitaet/ergebnis.html [german] (should be the «II. HQL» where I am))
All of us are kind of hooked on how our starter bubbles when the only thing we should be concerned about is if our starter is able to leaven bread. A 100% hydration whole rye starter will bubble up differently to a 100% hydration whole wheat and that in turn will bubble up differently to bread flour. And there is how much it is being fed with fresh flour in relation to the spent flour. Then there is hydration etc.
Bubbling up is an indicator that a starter is "active". What you then do with it when using in a recipe will result in a loaf of bread. Longer/shorter fermentations, retarding, different ratios/flour...
I want to know what your bread is like.
If the starter doesn't rise up in time, the bread doesn't either. I've been using the same basic recipe for my breads, usually just with different seasoning, and the time it took to double in size went from less than 2 hours after the first week to somewhere between 4 to 6 hours the last few times. And the times are getting longer. The breads turn out perfectly fine if I actually wait long enough, but the required proving times jumped up and have been increasing over the described time period.
For my bread recipe I make a preferment in a bigger jar where I use the discard of the starter when feeding + 100g flour (often 50g whole wheat, 50g rye + 100g water) and end up with somewhere between 220 and 250g sourdough, which I leave over night for 12 hours. After that time pretty much has climbed up almost to the top of the jar. At first it had also fallen down a lot already, now less and less.
Proving times this long are very inconvenient... :\
...can you post your recipe? Perhaps we can tweak it to suit your time table and/or tweak the method too.
The above preferment + ~150g rye flour, 250g whole wheat, ~240g water, a spoon of salt (~13g give or take), seasoning. Sometimes I mix in some whole spelt but that hasn't been an issue either. Knead a few minutes, let it rest for about half an hour, knead again for a few minutes, put into a proving basket, wait X hours, bake (~15min at 250C then around half an hour at 180C). (I do all the kneading by hand, because I like it.) http://users.archbsd.net/~blub/bread/wheat-rye-spelt-2.jpg (sorry I have no picture of that one after cutting it up :p you'll just have to trust me that it was delicious ;) ) http://users.archbsd.net/~blub/bread/walnut-bread-3.jpg (this one's with walnuts, and the dough was a bit wetter than I intended, and since I bake without baking pans it ran a bit to the sides before going upwards)
400g flour (150g rye, 250g whole wheat)
240g water
13g salt (give or take)
Levain 220g - 250g @ 100% hydration
Method: Knead, let rest for half an hour, knead again, final proof, bake.
Thoughts: This recipe has a very high amount of levain. You do a very short bulk fermentation and then a final proof. This will result in a more mellow bread. The loaf is about 68% hydration which is a bit on the low side for wholewheat and rye but if you're happy with that then fine. Salt is a bit too much which will inhibit the yeast somewhat.
Your build of the levain is 100g flour + 100g water + 20-50g starter. So let's start with this.
________________________________________________________________________
Build one (night before)
25g starter + 25g flour + 25g water. Leave overnight.
Build two (morning of)
75g starter (from build one) + 75g flour + 75g water. In a few hours it'll be ready.
Or if you wish to do a single build...
75g starter + 75g flour + 75g water (left overnight)
If your starter is sluggish it might benefit from 2 builds! Try feeding it with boiled water that has cooled to room temperature. Now onto the recipe...
I usually don't do such high amount of starter and bulk ferment for a lot longer. But you like the recipe. I suggest you drop the salt down to 8g. So final recipe is:
400g flour (150g rye, 250g whole wheat)
240g water
8g salt (give or take)
Levain 225g @ 100% hydration
Let me know what you think.
8g of salt. In your recipe.
No give or take :)
choose one you think is ripe and well fermented. Now let's forget about that word "double" and concentrate on "peak" or when the starter rises after being fed fresh flour to maximum volume.
Now feed it 1:7:10 (starter: water: flour) mark the level and let it rise in it's own time to peak, when it levels out, note the time. Now let it fall a little or deflate (we are still talking AP, right?) wait an hour or two after the 1st peak has leveled out and then reduce and feed it again a 1:7:10 and let it peak in it's own time. It should be getting faster at reaching peak.
Bake something with all the starter, add yeast if you want to speed it up. Now return to the starter and make the next feed a 1:4:5 feeding for 12 hours or however long it takes to peak out. Go for another 1 to 10 feeding to shorten the time but again, wait until it peaks and starts to fall back before reducing and feeding.
You might want to time your 1 to 10 feeding during the warmest part of the day letting the starter have a smaller feed at night or between 1:7:10 feedings. Usually a few 1:10 feedings perks it right up again.
You can try different methods at the same time, just keep good notes.
I just edited for AP flour with 70% hydration so it can peak more visibly.
After the edit - 1:7:10 seems a bit dry, though I've noticed that different types of flour behave differently there... I'm used to using whole wheat, and have more of that available. I can use all purpose flour though, or mix, I guess. (Just checked - I've got enough ^^ (the day I run out of flour is the day hell freezes over :P))
I guess I'll report back after a few feedings :)
Thanks
Did the 1:10 feeding 16 hours ago, it's been peaking since I got up several hours ago now, not falling yet though. I took a bit out for a taste test (I do that sometimes :p), quite sour. It's also very wobbly and the bubbles on top have become big and almost see through, so I expect it to visibly fall down soon-ish... I left it over night so I don't know the lag time but it was definitely a few hours. Keeping it at ≥ 25C during the day now to speed things up a bit :)
I would be willing to bet that the lag time was about 12 hrs. on that first 1:10 feeding. The next one should do better. Once it dimples in the middle and levels out, no longer a curved dome rising to the sky, it soon falls. 25°C, 26°C is a good idea. Don't go too warm. You want to keep those bacteria at bay. I so enjoy the aroma at this stage of the starter!
It should be smelling very yeasty, if not, wait until it does before reducing and feeding.
So like I said it took somewhere around 16 hours for the first 1:10 feeding to peak, and the 2nd one around 24 hours... I ended up doing the 3rd feeding after 30 hours (with a different flour, as explained below). I did wait till it deflated, and even if it was too early, this is a *significant* difference in time! Meanwhile I've been talking to a friend about baking, and he mentioned he once had issues with the brand of flour I'm using - saying that once he tried to make a bread (with yeast even) which just wouldn't rise at all. As I mentioned in the first post, a rye feeding seemed to slightly improve the starter, plus about 2 weeks ago when I was at my parents' over the weekend, the bread I baked there was rising more quickly than I expected. Now I've ruled out isses with the water by boiling it, and personally I really don't think I was underfeeding it, since I did feed it twice a day. What I hadn't actually ruled out so far is a problem with the flour... Yesterday I bought a different brand - a german import, which for sure has nothing to do with my usual one. Since I was afraid to feed such a weak starter with foreign culters I started with a 1:3 feeding, and this morning gave it a 1:5 feeding. Now, 10 hours later it has risen and fallen back down. Considering exponential growth, a factor of 2 in the amount of flour should NOT be a factor of 3 in the amount of time it needs to eat! So the first 1:3 feeding diluted out some of the old flour, and the 1:5 feeding was now significantly faster, as opposed to being significantly slower like the first two feedings made it. I'll report back in a few days.
Now I want to know the name of the flour. If the flour has been killing off some of your starter bugs, I would suggest starting a new starter while feeding this one. You might get a balanced starter back sooner. Just click on my name and send me a note. I will see what I can find out or even test the same flour. Batch number?
Sent.
On the one side I hope it's the flour and not me, on the other side I hope it's just me being weird :p and not the flour as that would just be awful.
than the flour.
Griffig wheat flour would be thicker at 100% hydration than fine wheat flour. Whole flours, flours with high fibre will also seem thicker and if gas is escaping they will rise less. These flours need more stirring to develop gluten to rise more. But who does that? Most of us simply stir the starter,water and flour until all the flour is wet and then leave it alone. So stir it well when feeding if making big comparisons between coarse and fine flours. Other ways of checking for fermentation should be applied. Aroma, taste, colour change, evidence of gas, low pH.
Taste the starter before feeding it, it should have sour notes, if not, it hasn't fermented enough. (Although someone will be quick to point out that not all sourdoughs are sour.) The sourdough needs the low pH (or acid) to protect itself between feeds and at the start of feeding, to ward off undesired bacteria that exist in every scoop of flour.
I did taste them before feeding them. They were sour, the last 2 times even a bit more sour than with the other flour. The pH value before feeding was on the lower end between 3 and 3.5 (assuming the paste that is my starter works on my indicators, which go from 1 to 10 with a single color strip so I can't be much more accurate than that). Yes... I tested it. I always smell and taste it, and these last few days also checked the pH value.
when using commercial yeast at the same time as sourdough. Keep utensils used for commercial yeast well away from your starter as these yeasts are a lot stronger and should you get your starter contaminated they will take over.
Since it still does raise the bread given enough time, I'll the changed recipe a try the next time I'm baking (still have half of my bread from 2 days ago and haven't visited my parents this weekend, so no extra bread baking this weekend either.) Meanwhile I'll try the 1:10:10 feeding in another jar. Though I fear it'll take a long long time to peak.
As for the salt - it didn't use to bother my sourdough previously either, (not that I have any particular reason to keep the amount so high... I just stuck with what produced good results in the beginning :) )
Oh and I don't add any yeast to my sourdough breads. As long as I still have the time for it I prefer to just wait for the dough to be ready even if it takes a few more hours.
Do not get yourself all muddled up with all those jars and different flours and feeding times and amounts.
I would strongly suggest to just keep the ONE jar with the starter that you want to keep and carry on with feeding with ONE flour for the moment.
To much feeding is not so good , I found out for myself when I had my starter on the counter and 100% hydration.
Feed it either in the mornigns or evenings, stick to the flour you want to use and weigh your flour and water or stick to the same cup amounts that you want to use.
When my starter was very sluggish I just got rid of all but 10g and fed with 30g flour and 30g water for a couple of days every 24 hours and I made sure that I discarded half before I fed again.
Only my experience with my starter.
I was a bit like you in the beginning of my starter journey, to much information here and there on the net got me all muddled up.
Yeah, too much information on the one hand, and on the other hand all you can do is wait and see. Unless you have a lab at your disposal, which I'd love, but lack.
try using a 1:7:10 and yes, it will take a long time, perhaps a day. I just edited the above. Thanks for patience, Mini.
What you should notice is that double doesn't mean peak and perhaps you were feeding your starter too soon for your temperatures. Letting the starter peak before a maintenance feed will insure that you don't feed too soon.
A starter that is fed a larger quantity of flour will peak later than one fed a smaller quantity of flour, as you have already recognized. That is not a problem, although you are concerned that it might be. It is simply that the yeasts and bacteria in the starter have been presented with a much greater quantity of food and it will take them longer to consume that bigger meal. At the same time, the populations will increase while consuming the food and you will eventually see the results of this: more bubbling in a wetter starter, like yours, or an increase in volume in a drier starter, as Mini has recommended.
If you follow Mini's directions, you will have a very active starter over the course of the next few days. And her stipulation about watching for the peak, not a doubling or other factor of expansion, is key. Yeast and bacteria populations are at their highest when the starter has peaked and is just beginning to collapse (all in very slow motion, of course). That's the time for another feeding or for use in a bread.
The time between the feeding and visible expansion of the starter is referred to as lag time and it is a function of the proportion of starter to food. There are other extensive posts here on TFL about starter behavior, so you may want to use the search tool in the upper right-hand corner of the page to look for lag time.
Paul
Thanks for pointing out these things. Things I (mostly) know but sometimes fail to take into account in situations like these.
Gonna search lag time now.
I used advice from here to keep my starter in good health during a week or even three weeks away. I used a 65 percent hydration percentage (yes, I weighed the inputs). Normally, I'm closer to 100 percent. As long as the starter seems puffy and healthy, this difference does not seem to matter. However, the greater the percentage of starter in a dough, the more that it's hydration will be a factor and must be calculated into the amounts of flour and water used. Not difficult.
As for time to use the starter in a dough, I usually do so a few hours to 10 hours after feeding. Sometimes, though, forgetfulness and other realities, get in the way. I have used unfed starter straight from the fridge. It just takes longer for it to do its thing in a preferment or in a dough. After all, the preferment mix or a dough are really extra big meals for a starter. It's the timing, then, that determines success. Patience is a virtue and a good dough technique.
Can you feed your starter 1:1:1 then take a before photo, a photo after 4 hours, 8hrs and then at 12 hours.
If inconvenient then just do a before and after photo then post it here.
I hardly think the flour is faulty. Never heard of such a thing. The flour is food for the yeasts as they eat the starches. How can flour be faulty and not have any starches in it?
Whole rye at 100% hydration will rise a lot and stay risen for quite a while as at 100% hydration it makes a very thick paste. It also makes larger bubbles.
White flour at 100% hydration will form a more liquid starter, will produce smaller bubbles and will rise differently.
And if you do a mix of flours? Well it'll all depend on the ratios and hydration.
Not all of our starters will behave the same. Some double, some triple, some a quicker, some are slower....
This is all becoming too technical. All I wish to know is are the yeasts alive and well.
Pesticides come to mind (though they advertise with being stricter about those than required by law...).
I can take pictures tomorrow (already gave it a bigger refreshment today and won't be home for the 4 & 8 hours pictures), but it seems to be improving already so it'll probably look fine. It's a survivor ;) whether the different flour helped or not, I don't know, I'm just glad it's starting to look better. If I'm overtaken by curiosity I'll use the last bit of the possibly bad flour on monday and compare them side by side.
are not making it into your flour. Not just for your Starter's sake.
Best of luck and hope to see those photos soon.