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Sourdough percentage to a mix

IanSR's picture
IanSR

Sourdough percentage to a mix

Hello.

I'm completely fascinated by the science of sourdough and how simple and effective it is in baking.

Forgive me if this has been asked before, but I am having trouble finding out how much of a sourdough starter do you add to a bread mix.

I'll give you a few examples:

Recipe from a baker celeb.

460grams of strong white flour

300 grams of sourdough starter

Here we are looking at 65.22% of starter.

Another

Bakers blog

720grams of bread flour

120 grams of sourdough

Here we are looking at 16.67%

Another

370grams of flour

250 grams of sourdough

This is 67.57%

These three examples show percentages two at the high end 65% mark and one at the low end 16%.

So, my question is using bakers percentages, the flour always 100% of the equation,

How do I know what percentage of Sourdough to use, as each recipe uses a different percentage amount of sourdough?

So sorry for this but it is driving me crazy.

Very kind regards

Ian

WoodenSpoon's picture
WoodenSpoon

on a number of things, namely how you plan to bulk ferment/proof. more preferment means faster fermentation and also less complexity of flavor. regardless of your time frames 60+% seems crazy high and you could drop it down to 25 or 30% and still go from mix to bake in one day. I'v got one going now that has 7% preferment and I plan to bulk ferment it for 10-12 hours at room temp then proof overnight in the fridge.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Anything from 10 - 33% is within normal range. 60+ doesn't sound right at all. 

IanSR's picture
IanSR

Thanks for your answer.

I'll use the 10-30% as a guide and work from their.

 

Kind regards

Ian

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

More starter = More mellow flavour

Less starter = More flavour

 

Reason being is less starter needs more time to inoculate the dough therefore longer fermentation time. Longer fermentation time will result in stronger flavour.

 

I imagine a very high percentage of starter will produce a bread but in little to no time. Certainly not enough time to develop complex flavours and you'll have less time to develop the gluten. It's all about balance.

And don't forget the gluten will be very weak with such a high percentage of starter as gluten in a starter has been destroyed. You might end up with poor quality structure. Certainly not like a bread that has less starter, which has had more time to develop flavour and gluten.

I suppose if you mix a very high percentage starter and develop the gluten by kneading till ready then go straight into final proofing you will get a bread. Will take very quick and won't be on par with a recipe that incorporates time, bulk fermentation and a final proofing.

IanSR's picture
IanSR

More starter = More mellow flavour

Less starter = More flavour

That is great!

It twists the mind a little. Opposites seemed to be at work here. One would normally think the more starter the more stronger flavour, but it is time that helps create the flavour. No rushing sourdough.

Thanks so much for that valuable piece of information.

Ian

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Sourdough is an art. We don't rush art. There are so many variables at work here. Another one would be temperature at which it ferments. You could have little starter but bulk ferment in a very warm area it'll speed it up and therefore produce a different flavour than the exact same dough, and starter, but retarded in the fridge.

My best advice to you is to find a simple sound recipe as your first sourdough. And work at it till you do it well. Get to know the steps and what is happening. Once you've sussed it and you have found your way then go on to the next recipe.

It's a bit like driving. If you know where you are going then you drive well. If you don't know where you are going then your driving suffers.

Or playing a musical instrument. If you are still learning a piece and trying to find all the notes then your timing will suffer. Once you don't have to fumble for the notes then your timing and expression will be perfect.

Enjoy!

suave's picture
suave

Why would gluten in the starter be destroyed?  I mean, unless an overripe starter is used.  Also you need to keep in mind that the more starter you use the more flavor is brought with it, although that depends a bit on how it's fermented.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

At this stage the yeasts have eaten through all its food and need feeding again. This time in the form of the dough. The aim of bread baking is to inoculate the dough through fermentation time but not too long so the yeasts destroy the gluten. What's an over ripe starter? Starter is either ripe (mature) or dormant (needs to be fed). We the yeasts have been fed and woken up, eaten their way through all the food and need to be fed again. Just at this point when it has peaked and begun to fall, we use it in the recipe. If there is any gluten left it will be very weak. We certainly aren't getting the structure from the starter. The starter is just the method of introducing the yeasts.

We get the flavour from the bulk fermentation and final proofing of the dough. When you use less starter it needs more time therefore longer fermentation time bring out the flavour.

suave's picture
suave

That the starter is mature/ripe does not mean that the yeast has consumed all the food.  Not at all.   What it means is that starter has attained its maximum volume, at which point the gluten in it is fully developed and it is most suitable for bread baking.  It's not weak - it's what holds the whole thing together.  In overly ripe starter gluten will start to deteriorate, but the culture will happily bubble for many more hours.

The yeasts don't destroy the gluten - they actually strengthen it by consuming carbohydrates and increasing its relative percentage.  What destroys the gluten is the action of proteolytic enzymes and increased acidity. 

The flavor is produced by fermentation.  It does not matter at what stage.  If it weren't so we would not have the ability to alter flavors by changing starter hydration.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

When you feed your starter it will smell sweet. As it ferments it'll gain that "tangy" smell. What's the difference if you feed your starter or add your starter into your bread? Basically it's a feeding. The starter adds the yeasts and the fermentation of your dough begins. When you feed your starter so it matures, before adding it into your dough, you are making them strong enough for your bread. I imagine different hydration levels will alter the time of the fermentation and will therefore also have an effect on the strength and yeasts amount.

Why do starters when mature become more liquid? I recently rehydrated a dried starter. Took a while for the yeasts to wake up. Till they did the flour + water autolysed for sometime and when stirring it to encourage the dormant yeasts I could see the autolyse action. In other words the gluten formation. When the yeasts finally did wake up and went through the cycle of eating through the food, starter rising and peaking etc... at the stage of a mature starter it never had that autolysed feel to it. It didn't have the "same" gluten formation feel. No doubt there is some there till completely destroyed but according to your theory you should be able to bake a mature "starter" into a loaf of bread. You might get a biscuit out of it or something like a "bake" but not really what we call bread.

 

suave's picture
suave

No doubt there is some there till completely destroyed but according to your theory you should be able to bake a mature "starter" into a loaf of bread. You might get a biscuit out of it or something like a "bake" but not really what we call bread.

 

You are basing this on a false assumption that dough is fermented to the same degree as a mature starter.  It's not.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Your assumptions. 

suave's picture
suave

Which ones?

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

1. In a starter there is good strong gluten therefore structure to the dough.

2. A mature starter will happily carry on feeding and bubbling therefore producing gas to push up a dough.

 

According to you a starter can be made into a loaf of bread. Those are the two ingredients one needs. There is a 3rd "time" but a mature starter has already had that.

So tell me why a starter alone should not make bread.

suave's picture
suave

1.  Absolutely.  Look at this picture:

This is the internal structure of mature 60% starter.  What do you think the strands that form the framework are?  They are gluten, and when added to the dough it does not magically disappear.

2. A mature starter will happily carry on feeding and bubbling.  I said that.  I stand by those words.  Absolutely.  But that therefore is yours.  I never said that overripe starter will push up the dough.   Well, it will, but I imagine the quality of dough will decrease - there is a reason why starter is taken off at its peak.

3. I never said starter can be made into a loaf of bread.  But it can.  That's what sourdough dough really is - starter with a bit of salt.  The difference, as I said before, is that dough is not fermented to the same extent.  Instead fermentation is considered complete somewhere around halfway to full maturity.  Consider your typical 1:4:4 starter fermented to full maturity in 12 hours.  The amount of prefermented flour in it is 1/18, that is 5.6%.  If we take it and use it, say in Norwich sourdough, which has 15% of prefermented flour, it would not be unreasonable to assume that fermentation time would be somewhat proportional.  That's an assumption since hydration is lower, and there's salt in but neither is supposed to speed up fermentation.  15/5.6 is 2.7, 12/2.7=4.4.  We get 4 hours 25 minutes.  But the normal fermentation time for this bread is 2.5 h, about half that.  And there is a reason for that because the rest of the time goes into proof, and oven spring. 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

to the same point as a mature starter we add into the recipe?

suave's picture
suave

And get bread out of it?  In principle - yes, but you would have to handle it differently.  If I had a runaway dough like that I would have carefully, as to avoid degassing, spread it on floured board, cut in chunks a-la pain rustique, and bake it right away with no proofing.  If I did it on purpose I would have started out with figuring what exactly that time is. 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

There's so much to breadmaking... just when I think I've sussed it I find a whole new idea and technique to learn and develop. I honestly thought the starter was just the inoculator and didn't have much gluten content and that gluten development happened in the dough and you had to take the percentage of starter as part of the equation etc...

suave's picture
suave

nt - I have no idea why it posted twice.

IanSR's picture
IanSR

Thanks for your thought on this question.

All the answers have helped greatly. Your proofing overnight in the fridge is an interesting idea.

When I get more experienced I will try that one.

Thanks once again.

Kind regards

IAn

etheil's picture
etheil

Ian,

This is probably not the answer you're looking for, but...there is no standard amount of starter to use. Well, maybe there are general guidelines, but I'm sure someone else would disagree with that statement as well. It's all about controlling ratios, time, temperature, and ingredients to arrive at a flavor, texture, and/or aesthetic that you and others can enjoy. Try all three recipes and decide which one you like. Try retarding or cold fermenting your dough in bulk or in its final shape. Throw some rye or spelt flour into the recipe. Try increasing/decreasing the hydration. Try cultivating a dough that favors lactic instead of acetic acid or vice versa. The combinations available to you are endless.

However, the answer is actually 20%. (Said with tongue planted firmly in cheek.)

Eric 

IanSR's picture
IanSR

:-)

Thanks Eric.

Great answer. You have cleared my mind and put me on a path of infinite learning and experimentation.

I do understand now. I should take what I read and watch with a pinch of salt and at the end of the day try it out for myself until I find out what works for me.

I'll start with 20% :-)

Ian

suave's picture
suave

It's not the amount of starter itself that matters, it's the amount of flour in it relative to total flour.  So, for your first example, assuming typical hydration range, the amount of prefermented flour is somewhere in the vicinity of 25% - not at all unusual for white sourdough bread.  The second recipe contains a much lower percentage of prefermented flour, but, in all likelihood, the bulk fermentation stage is considerably longer.

IanSR's picture
IanSR

Interesting points.

I went back to the video of the first example and he added 75grams of wholemeal flour, 75grams of water, 12 hours before starting his baking.

This being the case then the sourdough starter is actually 16.30%

I hope I picked up on your answer correctly.

Kind regards

Ian

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

is in the mix is not quite the standard way of doing it - but no worries - your question is spot on.  The first example has 300 g of starter.  If it is at 100% hydration, there is 150g of flour in the starter + 480 g of flour for 630 g of flour. 150/630 =23.8 % of the flour is prefermented. - a little bit over average.  The 2nd example is 60/780 = 7.7% pretty low. - but great for the AZ summers.  The 3rd is 125/495 =25.3% a bit over average.  I consider 20% prefermented flour about average for most places

I prefer to use around 10% in the summer here in AZ and 15% in the winter - to slow things down in the summer and speed things up in the Arizona warmer winters.  People in SF tend to use twice as much because their temperatures are much lower and temperature plays a huge part in how fast LAB abs yeast reproduce..

If you are short of time and want to make bread,  30-40% or even 50% prefermented flour isn't unheard of or out of character.  For a complex SD flavor, slow usually means better flavor though so if you have the time 'less is more'

Sprouted flour bread also tends to have less preferment since sprouted flours have more enzymes to break the starch into the sugars yeast and LAB can eat.

Happy baking .

baybakin's picture
baybakin

I see no note on the hydration of the starters in question.  This is why I feel you should calculate the Percentage of Pre-fermented Flour in any given recipe.  This takes the water out of the calculation for starter percentage, and thus the variabe of starter hydration.  Typical sourdough breads are between 10-20% prefermented flour, so in a recipe with 500g total flour and 70% hydration, granted that 15% of the flour will be prefermented in the starter (75g) you could get the following:

100% Hydration sourdough starter Recipe:
150g Starter (100% hydration)
425g Flour
275g Water
10g Salt

50% Hydration sourdough starter Recipe:
112g Starter (50% hydration)
425g Flour
313g Water
10g Salt

These two recipes would, according to how you were counting, have different percentages of starter. However, they have the same amount of flour prefermented within their starter amounts.

drogon's picture
drogon

I normally use 40% in wheat/spelt recipes. (That's 40% of the flour weight, bakers percentage way)

So e.g. 800g of flour would have 320g starter added to it.

A 9-10 hour bulk ferment is normal for my breads too.

-Gordon

ArieArie's picture
ArieArie

I find that the amount of starter and how active the starter is, affects the time it takes for the dough to ferment (all other things equal). If I am in a rush, I can make a sourdough loaf in 5-6 hours. I would use a very fresh and lively starter, at its peak of activity.  If I have the time and I know I would retard the fermentation in the fridge anyway, then I didn't care if the starter is at its peak.  Adding high portion of starter, and if the starter is not full refreshed, you are introducing a lot of dough that has over fermented (that's what starter is), and as such affects the dough negatively. I see recipes that ask for 40% starer. If the starter is not fully fresh and active, the dough will go slack because a large portion of it is over fermented.   

 

IanSR's picture
IanSR

AbeNW11

Can't thank you enough. Excellent points and ones I have written down and memorised

 

dabrownman

Good points about temperature. Where I am living, in the day it can reach 35c+ and 30c at night, so varying percentages according to outside temperatures is a point I will remember. All these external factors may seem like a mountain to remember, but I find it all fascinating that so much is involved to just make a loaf of bread.

Thank you for your valid points.

 

Baybakin, thanks for this as I went back to the information I originally looked at and re-calculated my numbers according to the weight of flour at the creation stage of the starter, the numbers are very different.

Thanks for the valid points

 

drogon

It just shows that at higher than normal percentage ration still gets a loaf that one can be happy with.

Time for me to experiment.

Thanks

 

ArieArie

Good points, but how do you determine what an active starter is? Or fully fresh?

Thanks for your input.

Ian

drogon's picture
drogon

40% is normal for me... One mans normal is another mans abnormal... What works, works!

-Gordon

Rick D's picture
Rick D

I recently started using Reinharts's BBA and having trouble determining how his bakers percentages add up. For example, on page 234 for the basic SD recipe it seems the firm starter percentage of 49.4% is based on the total weight of the preferment (flour AND water). If I calculate the percentage by the flour weight only in the preferment flour the percentage comes out to 25%. Before I go futzing around with his recipes I'm gonna make a few loaves using his recipe, but eventually I'll cut the preferment percentage back to like 15-20%, depending on ambient temp and what my timing is like.

 

question: how do I bookmark a thread so I can quickly reference it?

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Is to follow a recipe, see what's going on and then adapt to your own way. 

The thing about sourdough is there are so many variables and freedom of expression. Best of luck.

Under the original post you'll see some options. Click on "bookmark this" and you'll be able to access it from your home page. 

Rick D's picture
Rick D

Thanks much. Found the bookmark button.