The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Sourdough of my youth vs today's sourdough

Tina Marie's picture
Tina Marie

Sourdough of my youth vs today's sourdough

Hi everyone!

I'm new to TFL and have been doing some reading -- great forum, wish I had days and days to devote to reading it all -- and a photographic memory for the definitions of all the abbreviations.  But I digress...

When I was a child, and right up through high school, my mother kept sourdough in the fridge, in a green Tupperware container.  I remember she received some from a neighbor shortly after we moved into our new home.  Guess it was a housewarming gift of sorts.

It was my job to "feed" the sourdough weekly.  It was on my list of chores to do on a Wednesday or Thursday.  Then on Friday my mother would make sourdough baked goods (i.e. bread, rolls, muffins, etc.).  As I got a little older, I was given the duty of making sourdough muffins whenever we had company coming for lunch or dinner on the weekend.

After reading many posts, I have to say that our sourdough sounds nothing like the sourdough that you folks are talking about now.  I was 7 or 8 when I was feeding sourdough.  I haven't dealt with sourdough in about 25 years or so, but I remember measuring in dry ingredient(s) and liquid(s), stirring it up good with the wooden spoon, and putting it back on the bottom shelf in the fridge.

The sourdough was kept in the corner where it couldn't get knocked over because every time my mother or I took out the sourdough, the gasses would have popped the Tupperware lid off at some point, and my mother didn't want that stuff spilled all over her fridge by my siblings.

I remember the sour smell, how the texture was always super thick, and full of tons of tiny bubbles.  I never discarded anything, nor was there any liquid floating on top.  I was never told to discard anything.  Always just adding to the mix.

So why is the sourdough I read about on this forum so much more complicated than the sourdough of my childhood?

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Then no need to discard. You fed the starter twice a week so no chance there of your starter ever forming any liquid on top plus you kept it in the fridge the whole time. As far as texture goes it all depends on flour used, hydration and what temperature (starter in the fridge will be thicker). Last but not least... it was a long time ago and our memories may not always be entirely accurate. Your mother may very well have discarded some and maintained her starter pretty much the same as you've seen on here. There is no single correct way of starter maintenance. Everyone has their own method. It's what works for you that's best.

PetraR's picture
PetraR

I think that one can be overly careful with their Starter and others have a more relaxed attitude towards their Starter.

Some people ,like me, measure the flour and water by weight and feed their Starter, others use cups, others just eyeball it and see that they get the same consistency of their Starter.

Some people keep a large or larger amount of Starter, others keep just a small amount of Starter.

Some people keep their Starter on the kitchen counter and feed it once or twice a day, others keep theirs in the fridge and only feed it once a week.

Some people discard half of their Starter before feeding, others do not.

Some people like their Starter very thin, others more like pancake butter, others really firm * like dough *

Nothing is wrong, nothing is right really, if it works for you than that is just PERFECT:)

I do not know the science of the Starter Culture, I am just glad that mine grows as it should and leavens a bread that has a milder sour taste.

 

MonkeyDaddy's picture
MonkeyDaddy

in peoples' approach to starter maintenance.  I have a starter I've been maintaining for over a decade by keeping it in the fridge.  When I get a craving for sourdough, every 2-3 months or so, I pull it out of the fridge and feed it.  When I first take it out, some of the liquid has risen to the top and I stir it back in.  I always take a good sniff of it to make sure it smells "right," smell is a huge part of sourdough baking for me.  The first feeding is always very sluggish, it generally takes 10-16 hours to develop.  But the second and third feedings get progressively faster.  When I can get a full rise out of the starter in 4 hours or less it's time to bake.  

To a lot of people, it must seem like neglect (or sacrilege?) to leave the starter that long, and some may worry about it going bad.  But I got really lucky with my culture - it stands up well to such abuse, and when it is fed back up to full strength it is a very vigorous riser.  Plus, I save money in the long run: I keep 2 cups in the refrigerator and waste a cup when I feed it with 1.25 cups flour and 3/4 cup distilled water (makes it about poolish consistency).  If I was doing that weekly, I'd waste at least 5 cups of flour per month, but I can usually get a full-strength rise after 3-4 feedings at the end of 3 months, so I save about 8-10 cups of flour.  Also, with regard to it going bad, I have never had that happen.  I keep it in a crock with a loose fitting lid and scrupulously wash the crock every time I go through a feeding cycle.  After feeding it up, it's fresh as a sour daisy and makes awesome bread.

The crock and the culture were purchased from the King Arthur catalog for me as a gift several years ago, and they still offer them.

Tina Marie's picture
Tina Marie

I was a senior in high school the last time I fed my mother's sourdough or made sourdough anything.  After I moved out, my parents downsized to a smaller house, as there were only three kids left in the house vs seven.

My mother deep-sixed the sourdough as my younger sisters were not into cooking and baking as I was, plus my parents seem to have relaxed their standards on chores.

I very much remember just feeding the sourdough, and since I had to make bread with my mother (I will never forget the endless kneading -- thank God for lovely, new, modern machines) I definitely remember that we never ever wasted anything.  With seven children to feed, food was never wasted, ever.  My father practically had a stroke anytime food was being thrown away.  He would say we were throwing away money that he and my mother worked very hard for.

The only time my mother threw food away was if it had lots of mold growing on it.  If there was a little bit of mold, my mother would always say there's nothing wrong with a little natural penicillin, she would scrape it off, tell me to keep my mouth shut, we would reheat those leftovers, and the family would eat them.  So I can guarantee that my mother was not discarding any sourdough for any reason.  :)

I am glad to know that the sourdough of today can be like the sourdough of my childhood, or even less hands on like MonkeyDaddy's.

Thank you all for the input, I think I will invest in the KA crock, but I would like to start sourdough from scratch rather than from a pre-made kit.  I am trying to stick with ancient and heirloom grains as they are non-GMO, and I am trying to stay away from all the chemicals that are packed into our food these days.

There is a recipe that came with my Assistant, that I think I'll try.  I guess I wanted reassurance that I could treat sourdough the way I did as a kid, keeping it short and sweet.  The complicated sourdough is a bit too advanced for me, and to be honest, I'm rather lazy so anything to make something easier is the way I like to go.

sfsourdoughnut's picture
sfsourdoughnut

I was fortunate enough to be staying in San Francisco for a bit.  I bought a handful of red grapes, washed them well, then left them on the counter to "shrivel".  About a week later, I added them to 1/2 cup of filtered water overnight.  The next evening I removed the grapes and added flour.  The "bloom" the next day was amazing!  But it was grape yeast, not sourdough.  I added flour and water.  It went to sleep (the first set of yeast having died off).  It took another couple of days for new tiny bubbles to start forming.  I kept feeding 2x/day (tossing half and then refeeding) and, after 5 days, had the most amazing starter.  You can do the same with pineapple juice, except I prefer not having the taste of pineapple in my starter (it seems to sweeten it for a long time after).
Anyway, should you feel so inclined to start your own starter to keep in your fridge now.
By the way, I keep my starter in the fridge by taking 30g of starter and adding 45g-60g of flour to form a really tight almost dry ball of dough.  I put that in a plastic container with good lid.  It keeps for up to 4 months without so much as a "how'd you do".  If there are any dark parts that have formed on it, I cut those away until I get to the inside "clean" starter.  Then I put that starter in a 2-cup glass pyrex measuring cup on the counter, stir in an equal amount of water to form a slurry (this distributes the old starter), then stir in an equal amount of flour (1:1:1 = starter, water, flour; so, 60g starter, 60g water, 60g flour).  Cover loosely then feed every 12 hours (when you leave for work and then when you return).  You really only need a tablespoon of starter to do this with, but I like to use my excess starter for pancakes and english muffins.  Just don't forget to keep a little back to put back in your fridge for next time.

Tina Marie's picture
Tina Marie

Thank you so much for all the information and instruction.  I'm going to keep it in mind for the future.  I think I need to concentrate on getting consistent results with non-sourdough bread making.  I've only been making bread for a few months and every week is an adventure in bread making -- there's no telling how the loaves will turn out -- they're always edible, just don't always look that great.

I did attempt to make bread with the sourdough starter I made.  The loaves came out like two bricks - weighed about the same amount.  We did not even attempt to try any of it, straight into the trash it went.

So I think I need to improve my bread making skills with the easy stuff first -- learn to crawl before I start running, so to speak.  :)

GregS's picture
GregS

Tina Marie, I think you are right in wanting to make it easier. I admit to being a bit compulsive about my sourdough management, so I wanted to add a reason I haven't yet seen mentioned.

I make bread from recipes found here and in the several books I've acquired. When they say "Add 1 oz of 60% starter", I try to match that so that the recipe comes out like the author intended. I have to admit that my strict adherence doesn't always seem to be rewarded. As I get more skilled with bread making, I find that subjective evaluation and "loose" measurements often work as well as laboratory precision. Although having said that, I still believe the use of a kitchen scale for ratios like flour/water is really best.

What you are doing is fine, I just wanted to add the (somewhat) compulsive point of view.

GregS

Tina Marie's picture
Tina Marie

GregS, I am very obsessive compulsive about a lot of things, and I just don't want to be that way when making bread.  When I read about 60% hydration and whatnot, my eyes tend to glaze over.  It's too much like word problems in school, which are not my strong suit.

I definitely agree that following a recipe precisely is not always rewarding.  I found that out with my first two attempts at making bread.  I weighed everything, including the salt and yeast and the bread did not look at all the photo.  It didn't taste all that great either.

On my third attempt, I went back to what I'm used to and comfortable with, using measuring cups and spoons, and viola!  The bread was lovely.  I've been making bread for a few months now and have yet to try weighing the ingredients again, and I'm not sure I even want to try.

I'm in school now, but in a couple of weeks, I'm going to try the sourdough recipe from scratch.  I would like to try some of the bread recipes on this site, but I tend to get lost in the math.  I guess I'll have to practice and see if I can figure it out. :)

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Here's an easy recipe for you. Very simple... remember! when working out percentages the flour always equals 100%

 

FORMULA

Flour : 100%

Hydration : 66%

Salt : 1.5 - 2%

Active Starter : 10%

 

So taking the flour as 100% we can now convert very easily...

 

Flour : 400g

Water : 264g which is 264mls [0.66 x 400 = 264]

Salt : 6 - 8g [0.015 - 0.02 x 400 = 6 - 8]

Active Starter : 40g

 

This will give you a 704g loaf of bread. Medium size.

 

METHOD

  • Night before : Feed your starter equal parts flour and water. Enough for 40g to go in your recipe and some left over for next time.

 

Day Of :

  • In a bowl mix together 40g active starter and 264g of water till evenly distributed and turns milky white.
  • Add in the flour and gently knead into loose dough (don't overwork it).
  • Cover with towel or clingfilm and allow to Autolyse (rest) for 1hr.

 

Have a break :)

 

  • After 1hr add the salt by sprinkling evenly as possible and folding the dough as you do so.
  • Then proceed onto the stretch and folds - with 20min intervals do the stretch and folds 3 times.
  • After 3rd stretch and fold, form dough into ball and place in oiled bowl (don't over oil it, just enough so it won't stick) and cover for a few hours. This is the Bulk Fermentation. The longer you leave it the better the flavour. I normally do about 3 - 4 hours but some even do up to 12 hours. If really long Bulk Fermentation then do so in the fridge. If shorter then no need, just leave out on kitchen top.

 

Have another break!

 

  • After bulk fermentation gently de-gas and take out of bowl. Shape the dough and place in floured banneton. Leave to rise for Final Proofing till doubled.
  • Tip out of banneton onto baking tray - gently - and score the top.
  • Bake in pre-heated oven.

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

When feeding my starter and making the dough I always use boiled water from the kettle that has cooled down to room temperature.

Tina Marie's picture
Tina Marie

Thank you!  I very much appreciate the "math" help!  I am going to invest in some metric measuring cups and spoons.  Seems that most of the recipes are metric measures.

I'm printing that out and going to use it in the next couple of weeks.  I have to finish school first as it's taking up too much of my time with studying and homework.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

You'll find it much easier to work in grams. Makes life so much easier.

Equal parts flour and water by weight is 100% hydration.

So 100g flour + 100g water (or 100mls - don't forget that 1g of water = 1ml) is 100% hydration

Majority of people keep their Starters at 100% hydration too. Just feed it equal weight of flour and water. And make sure you feed no less than 1:1:1.

That means if you have 40g of starter in the fridge then it should be fed no less than 40g flour : 40g water.

I think this might answer your question about discarding. Your mother baked a lot and put the starter into her breads, biscuits etc etc etc. You fed the starter once or twice a week and your mother took from that for every bake and just built it up for whatever she needed.

But let's say, like me, you only bake once a week one medium loaf. You have 40g in the fridge and it should be fed no less that 40g flour and 40g water. So after feeding we have 120g. But I only need 40g for my bake. so i'll have 80g left now. And the nest time I feed it I should feed it no less that 80g flour and 80g water now.

There is a way around this to only keep much smaller amounts then take from that and build it up over a few days feeding a few times. But if you're like me and you want less fuss sometimes it's just easier to discard a little to keep it from building up too much.

 

charbono's picture
charbono

Tina, your mother had some fine qualities.

When I first started baking with sourdough, I followed authoritative guidance, which recommended refreshing the starter several times before using it out of the refrigerator.  Maybe that’s good advice if the starter has been in the fridge for an extended period. 

I use my starter once a week.  I now find that all I have to do is bring it out of the fridge, let it sit for about 18 hours, take what I need for my levain (which is most of it), feed, let sit for 30-60 minutes (depending on ambient temp), then refrigerate. 

The only negative is that I have no discard for my pancakes.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

if you're like me and you want less fuss sometimes it's just easier to discard a little to keep it from building up too much.

Or mop it off the kitchen counter after it's overflowed its vessel.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

:)

Tina Marie's picture
Tina Marie

Thank you all for your replies and suggestions.  I feel confident that I will be able to deal with the sourdough with little fuss.

banananutmuffin's picture
banananutmuffin

I am a newbie to sourdough, though not new to baking. But in my short experience, I'd say I have a "loose" approach to maintenance and recipes. I have already started messing with adjusting my favorite bread recipes into sourdough versions, and I am not a math person. I handle dough almost entirely by feel and look. I weigh sometimes, but not often. I've had a few failures, but am seeing a lot more successes now that I am more familiar with sourdough and my own starter.

However, I should add that I absolutely LOVE sourdough waffles and crackers, both made with discarded starter. So don't necessarily try to manage your starter so there's no waste. Personally, I think nothing makes a better waffle than sourdough.

Tina Marie's picture
Tina Marie

banananutmuffin, thanks for the feedback.  I've not done whole lot of experimenting while making bread yet, but I imagine I will get there at some point soon.  I like adding ground flax seed or chia seeds to my bread dough, and adding them whole as well.  And if I don't have a particular flour, I will substitute what I do have. I would have to see how I could add sourdough starter to my weekend pancakes.  I make the mix from scratch and not quite sure how to incorporate sourdough and what would need to be taken out. Thanks for the suggestions!

David Esq.'s picture
David Esq.

These sourdough pancakes come out quite excellent.

I can't say that I prefer them to straight pancakes, but I haven't done a side by side taste test either. My current favorite, because they are so easy, simply uses wheat berries (preferring white wheat these days), milk, salt, honey and baking powder.  I use my blendtec blender and don't have to grind the berries.  I assume it would work as well or better if I grind the berries into flour... Hmmm, I may have to try that.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

The "bloom" the next day was amazing!  But it was grape yeast, not sourdough.

I'm glad you recognize the difference.