The Fresh Loaf

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Gummy inside of sourdough bread

Tatjanica's picture
Tatjanica

Gummy inside of sourdough bread

Hello everyone,

i am making sourdough bread for a while, and it's getting much better each time, but i still have some issues with little gummy inside of the bread.

My recipe goes like this:

in the evening i mix 500g of bread and whole wheat flour, 50g of rye sourdough starter (fully active), one tablespoon of sugar, 1 1/2 teaspoon of salt and about 1, 1 1/2 cup of water. Then I kneed it for about 10 minutes (by hand) , or until gluten is developed and leave it to stay over night (about 12 hours). Then i shape it in the boule and leave it to stay between our and two. I bake it 30 minutes in preheated oven on 230 degrees C, with steam. First 10 minutes i keep it covered with a perchment paper, and than i uncover it and bake for another 20 minutes. 

In most recipes, it is said to bake it at least at 250 degrees, but i tried it and my crust burns, so i did it on 230C. 

I would appreciate any advice how to make it better, with more fluffy inside.

Thanks forward!

This is how it looks inside:

aroma's picture
aroma

If you could use grams for all ingredients then it would be much clearer to see where the problem was

Tatjanica's picture
Tatjanica

It was:

500g flour (350g bread flower, 150g whole wheat), 300g water, 50g starter, 8g salt and 15g sugar

rozeboosje's picture
rozeboosje

I'm still not entirely sure whether it was due to me letting the dough proof for too long, or whether I just kneaded it too much, but lately it doesn't seem to happen so much anymore. I'm applying a lighter touch to my kneading these days, so maybe that's it? Anyway; I'm really just posting here so I get notifications when those with the real knowledge post their words of wisdom :-)

Ford's picture
Ford

I believe your bread is under done.  I bake at 450*F (232°C) for 15 minutes then reduce the temperature to 350°F (176°C) for another 40 minutes or until the interior temperature is 195° to 200°F (91° to 93°C).  Use an instant read thermometer inserted into the middle of the loaf to check for doneness.  That is much more reliable than time or even the finger "thump."

Ford

loaflove's picture
loaflove

Hi Ford

I have a problem with gummy loaves too but it dense gumminess is in spots.  not the whole loaf in general. i don't think i'm overfermenting.  or maybe i am?? is it my starter, or could it be oven temp?  My loaves tend to get too dark before the suggested baking time but i still do leave it in for the entire recommended amount of time. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

The oven is too hot.  If you're getting good crust color, it's not likely overproofed. Can turn down the heat half way thru the bake.  See if that helps.

loaflove's picture
loaflove

Thanks Mini Oven. i was so excited a pro like you replied to my question! The best part of my bread is the crust!  I'll try your suggestion.  

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I'm not a pro, just a home baker like most with curiosity and experiences.  Not everything works but trying everything can be interesting.  It is nice to have the pros pop in and enlighten us.  Always something new to learn and share.  

And with that thought..... I'm going to make me some frog bread, like the idea of frog butt sandwiches.  :)

loaflove's picture
loaflove

Lol! You're so modest ! I hear frogs taste like chicken.  

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

got to throw that idea about to those who like to bake a three bird roast!  I'll settle for a steak sandwich stuffed in frog butt.  (I can hear Floyd grinning.)   Guacamole garlic sauce anyone?   Tapioca pudding for dessert.  Lol!

Tatjanica's picture
Tatjanica

Thanks for both of comments.

I am already trying lighter kneading, so i think that is not a problem, but thanks for advice!

And Ford, yes, i will definitely try longer baking, i was already thinking about it, but was afraid to try it. I will try it your way and i hope it will work! 

ghazi's picture
ghazi

I got gummy insides a couple of times, it was overproofing in the end. Now I watch my dough carefully and feel to see when its ready

rozeboosje's picture
rozeboosje

The times when it appeared to go wrong for me in the past were the times where I had to leave a dough for longer than I would have liked due to other commitments. I often bake breads for shorter times, but granted, they'd be smaller breads; I usually bake a bread with about 300 to 350 grams of flour, and some 3% salt. I'm currently trying to learn to handle the higher hydration doughs, but still struggling with that.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

for 12 hours to bulk ferment it would be goo! In cooler climates this would be possible I suppose but I have no experience doing that even in the winter - but I might try it this year:-)  With an hour or two final proof in a cold climate I'm guessing it is not over proofed but it might be over fermented or under baked but I'm guessing under baked.

I would go back to 250 C regular bake, no fan and uncovered for the first 12 minutes of baking with Mega Steam and then take out the steam and turn it down to 220 C, with fan if you have it, for another 20 minutes or so till it hits at least 96 C on the inside.  The extra heat in the beginning on a hot stone will give you better lift too.  It won't be burnt and instant read thermometers are very inexpensive.

If it is still gummy then I would say it is over fermented during those long 12 hours and I would try 6 - 8  on the counter and then 6 to 4 in the fridge instead.

Happy baking

Tatjanica's picture
Tatjanica

For fermenting tip, do you mean to leave it for first fermentation 6-8 hours and than shape it and leave it in the fridge 4-6 hours before baking? And how long should it be out of the fridge before putting it in the oven?

Thanks 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Then to curb possible over fermenting instead of 12 hours on the counter you could do say 6 hours and pop it in the fridge for 6 hours. then shape it and let it final proof on the counter.  The other option is to do 6 hours bulk ferment on the counter then shape and put it in the fridge for slow cold proof overnight and, if it doesn't fully proof in the fridge, let it come to room temperature in  the morning and or fully proof on the counter before baking.  Either way will work.

The other day I followed a no knead method where it was bulk fermented it the fridge for 24 hours then shape cold and then final proofed in the fridge for 24 hours then brought to room temperature and baked   Worked great

Tatjanica's picture
Tatjanica

Thank you so much, this was really helpful! Now I at least know what the issues may be, and I know what to fix. I'll let you know if it gets better! 

 

leucadian's picture
leucadian

When I look at your crumb shot, I see a number of things:

Nice color on the ear: the top of the bread got hot enough.
Nice opening of the grigne/slash: decent oven spring so overproofing is not the issue.
Nice rounded edges next to the bottom: good oven spring.
Dark color on the bottom, although thin: the bottom of the bread got hotter than the rest of the loaf.
Big holes in the crumb, especially the tall ones along the bottom: maybe a shaping issues, exacerbated by high bottom heat.

Many recipes recommend heating the oven to a high temperature before putting the bread in, then reducing the temperature when you start baking. I think the benefit of this technique is simply to ensure the heating elements remain off during the first several minutes of baking. If the heating elements come on too early, the crust can burn before the rest of the loaf has a chance to heat up, leaving you with a beautiful loaf and underdone crumb.

You might try heating the oven to 250C/482F, and let it stabilize for 30 minutes, or more if you are using a baking stone (i'm guessing you are not). Then 5 minutes before baking, insert your steam generator (boiling water in rocks, dishtowel, or whatever) and turn down your temperature to 230C/446F. Then after that 5 minutes has elapsed, with the steam in the oven and the heating elements cooled, quickly insert your shaped dough in the middle of the oven. You could continue to bake at this temperature, or as Ford recommends, after 15 minutes, reduce the oven temp to finish baking till you get a good internal temperature.

I like the appearance of your crust, and i think a longer, cooler bake will fix the gummy crumb. 

Meat5000's picture
Meat5000 (not verified)

Initial high heat just ensures that the temperture remains stable and doesnt drop when you put things in the oven that will sink this heat. Containers, kilo of dough etc etc... will all suck that heat in potentially lowering the remaining heat energy and subsequently lowering the surrounding achievable temperature.

This initial high heat stops chewy crusts so it can be important to be maintained without droops.

Tatjanica's picture
Tatjanica

Yes, i am not using baking stone, insted of that i preheat brass in he oven and put bread on it. Do you think it is good idea, or should i better put it in on cold brass?

leucadian's picture
leucadian

What matters is not the material but how thick it is, and how fast it conducts heat to the bread. A baking sheet of aluminum is quite thin, and has very little mass, so it doesn't hold much heat. A sheet of brass of the same thickness would be about the same. A plate (flat piece) of thick brass, say 5mm, would hold a lot of heat, and would release it quickly into your bread. A baking stone is typically 6-8mm thick, and releases heat slowly, like a wood fired oven. 

I think the dark crust on the bottom is due to the brass plate cooking it quickly.

I would suggest that you try baking in an enclosed container, like a dutch oven (cocotte?) which will give you very even cooking temperatures, and capture enough steam to produce a great crust. Inverting an oven-proof bowl over your bread with the brass plate underneath would have a similar effect.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

The brass is too hot.  Can also reduce the heat if desired.  Metal tends to burn if too hot.   Lower the oven temp to 200°C and it will still come out, in fact, I would start baking the loaf sooner (less risen) at a lower preheat temp and then raise the temp 20°C after 5 to 10 minutes of baking.  When the oven reaches 220°C (about 10 - 15 min. later, return the temp down to 200°C and finish the bake.  Mini ovens heat faster so raise the temp slower if you have one.  

Also, one thing in the mixing stands out to me:  kneading right away for about 10 minutes.  

Save yourself some work and let the flour hydrate first.  Try this variant.  After moistening the flour, let it sit covered for about the same period of time (or up to an hour)  Then start to knead.  Compare the differences in both dough development and dough feel.  Unless you need a reason to knead (for a dough like this) the first 10 minutes is about the same with or without kneading.  Use less flour on the bench.

Because it is a sourdough, letting it warm up, cold shape and stand an hour or two, might be too short of a time depending on the overnight temperature.  Might want to sneak in another shaping if overnight temps are very low.  

 

rozeboosje's picture
rozeboosje

Now THERE is a good tip.... Don't start kneading straightaway. Got to try and see whether that makes a difference in my "High Hydration Nightmare" :-)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I have some interesting metal trays I never thought about baking on them (have to check for lacquer first)  Hmmm,  interesting thoughts for interesting bottoms...  ???

Tatjanica's picture
Tatjanica

Thank you leucadian. And if i bake it in container should i bake it closed all the time, or to remove the lid after some time? And how long to bake it in the container and on which temperature?

rozeboosje's picture
rozeboosje

Same questions, plus:

I have a couple of le creuset casseroles, like so: http://www.lecreuset.ie/EInBusinessTemplates/Everything/Images/catalogue/xlarge/cast_iron_round_casserole_18cm_volcanic.jpg . Could one cook a bread in one of them (after taking the plastic knob off)? And if one does, does one put the dough into a casserole heated in the oven, or does one put a cold casserole with the dough in it into a hot oven? I would guess you put the dough into a hot casserole, but please confirm....

leucadian's picture
leucadian

You've been given several different temperature profiles, and they are all reasonable. You're going to have to experiment to find what works. Baking in a preheated dutch oven evens out the temperature spikes of the heating element so you don't burn the surface of the bread, and it captures the steam that is naturally released by the dough as it bakes. The bake should take about the same time as it would in an open oven, but you need to release the steam by removing the lid after the loaf has risen and the grigne formed, and letting the top brown properly.  I would try one bake in a dutch oven with the temperatures you started with.

We tend to think that all ovens control temperature the same way, but as Mini pointed out for mini-ovens, they are all different. Some heat faster, some unevenly, some don't settle on the indicated temperature. The baking stones and cast iron pots help with some of these factors, but you will have to determine for yourself how to coax the best performance out of your particular oven, and your technique will change with different breads. 

Tatjanica's picture
Tatjanica

I think you should put it in the cold oven and let it warm up inside, and then put bread in hot container. But let the experts tell the right way to do it :)

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Put what in cold oven?

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Put what in cold oven?

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Put what in cold oven?

PetraR's picture
PetraR

I think he means the Dutuch Oven, to put it in the Cold Oven and let it preheat with the Oven and than put the dough in to the very hot Dutch Oven.

rozeboosje's picture
rozeboosje

It just didn't sound right to shove a cold Dutch Oven into a hot oven. It sounded right to put dough into a Dutch Oven that had heated up along with the main oven it is in. But what "sounds right" to me and what is actually right aren't always the same thing... yet, I hope [grin]

PetraR's picture
PetraR

Well, some people use to final proof their bread in the Dutch Oven and put it like this in the pre heated Oven.

I prefer to preheat my Dutch Ovens before I put the loafs in.

Tatjanica's picture
Tatjanica

Hey everyone, just wanted to say that I started to make incredible sourdough bread. yey!

Turned out that my starter was all the problem, i wasn't active enough so that is why my bread couldn't rise and be airy inside. Now i started to make new starter by this recipe, and it is really good. http://foodtravelthought.com/7-easy-steps-making-incredible-sourdough-starter-scratch/

Anyway, thanks for all comments, they were really helpful!

 

gr0m1t's picture
gr0m1t

Thanks for the update. Will take longer to re-activate my starter when I take it out of the fridge although I get a reasonable rise and air inside, it's just gummy. :(

 

 

gr0m1t's picture
gr0m1t

 My recipe calls for 100g of starter. I still get gummy bread. Lovely crispy crust, though

 

Gavin Johnston's picture
Gavin Johnston

I this message from Ford dated 25 September 2014, but I followed his advice about overcoming gummy bread when cutting it. It was as follows 

After baking at 232°C for 15 minutes then reduce temperature to 176°C for 40 minutes or until internal temperature of 91°C to 93°C. 

I followed these instructions and found the internal temperature when lowering the temperature to 176°C jumped to 92°C within 10 minutes, then slowly rose to 99°C after 40 minutes.