The Fresh Loaf

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Butter + what to add avoid dryness

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SherriFL's picture
SherriFL

Butter + what to add avoid dryness

I was looking on the internet for info about using Butter when making dough and found one of the forums here from 2009.  Several people mentioned the great flavor from using Butter but that butter left the cooked dough on the dry side.

I am very new to trying to make dough from scratch and do not have a stand mixer with all the gadgets, only my hands & fingers and a rolling pin.  

I have been trying to make a Sunny Spinach Pie and the recipe only gives instructions for the dough using a Stand Mixer with a Dough Hook (whatever that is). I have tried store bought pre-made Pie Crust dough, pre-made French Bread dough, and pre-made Pizza Dough.  Ugggh.  Nothing tastes right.  They were all very bland tasting and the latter 2 were dry.  I found a simple recipe called Rapid Mix Sweet Dough that I want to try for the bottom & top of this recipe, but I do not use or consume Margarine.

My Question is: If using Butter to make your dough, what can you add to keep it from being so dry?  If I use Butter, Lard or Extra Virgin Olive Oil instead of the Margarine the recipe calls for, what is the conversion ratio?  Recipe calls for 1/2 cup Margarine.

Any and all helpful tips would be appreciated.  Remember, I Know Nuthin except how to stir the ingredient, play with the dough with my hands, flour the counter surface and use a rolling pin.  Oh, I can also make quite a mess.  lol.

Thanks,

Newbie Kneader

Ford's picture
Ford

 I make loaf bread (white & whole wheat) using butter and milk.  The loaves keep very well in the refrigerator, or in the freezer.  Both butter and milk will enrich the bread and slow the drying process.  You make a direct substitution of butter for oleo, lard, and oil on a weight or a volume basis.  If your bread is dry, perhaps you are baking it too long.  Insert a thermometer into the loaf after removing the loaf from the oven.  The interior temperature should be 190° - 195°F.

Bread was made before the mixers came along.  Your hands and a wooden spoon will work just fine.  Learn the stretch and fold (S&F) method for kneading, if you get too tired of kneading.  Using an autolyse period and prolonged bulk fermentation will build flavor.

Happy baking,

Ford

Ford's picture
Ford

 

 

CatPoet's picture
CatPoet

½ cup margarine is the same amount of butter, so that is easily converted. How ever  oil and lard gives totally different  pastry and dough so no to start with.

And no bread should not be stored in the fridge, it destroys the gluten.

To avoid getting it dry, dont add too much flour and knead the dough until soft and pliable Since you dont have   machine and I use my hand when making  bread, my tip is  mix the dough until  sticky, pour out on a  floured surface and knead in the rest, that way you can feel when the dough is perfect, not sticky and yet soft

adri's picture
adri

... if the gluten wasn't already destroyed by the baking process?

In my experience, it gets stale faster in the fridge though. Even if I put it in a sealed box. But I have no idea why.

mwilson's picture
mwilson
adri's picture
adri

Oh, come on. I read about this just a view month ago.

Thanks!

 

Edit: The topic was: Freezing bread in a bakery should be done with speacial equipment that does it fast. Freezing a bread slowly will keep it too long between +8 and -8 where this effect is strongest.

The same reason you should defreeze your bread in the oven and not on the counter.

Adrian

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

" ½ cup margarine is the same amount of butter, so that is easily converted. How ever  oil and lard gives totally different  pastry and dough so no to start with. "

I've found three different results that can be achieved with changing the fat. Butter gives the best flavor (my opinion), with a light, dry crispiness. It can make some foods heavier. Fake fats, like Crisco and margarine, make foods feel a bit like play-do when cooled and don't give any sort of crispiness to the crust. Liquid oils seem to make everything softer and lighter, which is good for cakes, but not so great for pastries. These are only my untrained observations, and may be off by a couple miles from accepted scientific assertions. But, they seem to work well for me as rule-of-thumb guidelines in my kitchen.

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

I just looked up Sunny Spinach Pie and found that the dough is a very special case. It is not really bread dough as we know it, because it has no leavening agent. It isn't really a pastry shell or pie crust either, because it has too much liquid and not enough oil or fat. There were a couple of different recipes I looked at, but they were not much different. What exactly is the recipe you use (just the dough part)? For instance, one I found called for:

500g flour

90ml extra virgin olive oil

200ml dry white wine

10g salt

* Place all dough ingredients in a stand mixer. Using the dough hook, knead until the dough is smooth and combined. Wrap in plastic while you make the filling.

I would expect this to be dry when cooked, especially, since it is rolled out thin like a pie crust. I don't think it would be a problem. But, I don't make pie crusts regularly, and I've never made one like this. What exactly are you aiming for with this? What would you like this crust to be like when it is done? If you want it to be softer, you could simply increase the amount of fat (oil, butter, etc) that you use in the recipe. If you want the taste of butter, but a bit softer, you could substitute some of the butter with regular cooking oil. I would probably do both. For example, if the recipe called for 50g butter, I would just add 25g oil, which increases the fat content, but changes to oil, which will yield a softer crust.

CatPoet's picture
CatPoet

When you start cooking it easier to just  replace   equal measure butter or margarine.  I try to keep it simple when there a novice around. I know how disheartening it can be when you dont understand the lingo and how this can make you avoid learning.  I used to  take care of a food forum for young people.

Substitute table 

 5 tablespoons of butter = 4 tablespoons of lard

 5 tablespoons margarine = 4 tablespoons lard

1 C shortening = 1 C - 2 tablespoons lard

 

1 cup shortening = 1 cup + 2 tablespoons margarine

1 cup shortening = 1 cup + 2 tablespoons butter

Oil can be used instead of melted fats    50 grams = 50 ml

 

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

Novices need simple and easy. Actually, I like everything to be simple and easy, even in areas of life where I'm not a novice. Albert Einstein has been quoted saying "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

But, I think we under-estimate people too much. It's good to stretch people when they are learning new material. Give them a gentle nudge toward better things, including asking more and better questions! I usually aim to do two things when answering a question:

Give a simple solution that works right away, and

Give a reason for the person to ask more questions so they can learn things they didn't know they wanted to know.

CatPoet's picture
CatPoet

I  always give people something they can try and most likely wont end up burnt and this gives them the courage and curiosity to try more and also start slow. 

When you know the basic they can do more fun things in the future.

SherriFL's picture
SherriFL

Yes, that is the recipe's dough ingredients and I haven't made that dough.  The few that I have tried were bland crusts and seemed to ruin the wonderful spinach & cheese flavor.  Made me feel like I needed to dip it in some kind of sauce.

So, do I add the 25g of oil & 25g of butter or 50g of butter?

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

If you're going to use the dough mix that you mentioned, but you want to substitute butter for the margarine it calls for, try just the substitution first. It may work well enough like that. If that works for you and tastes good, but is just a little dry, then add a little bit of oil in addition to the butter. In other words, figure out first what tastes good to you. That is the hard part. Adding a little bit of oil will help soften the dough without significantly changing the flavor (unless it is a strongly flavored oil like olive oil). But, you may not need it.

I'm curious about why you haven't ever made the dough that the recipe calls for. It seems to me that dough would be plenty flavorful. If it's just because it calls for a mixer, that shouldn't stop you. Hand mixing would be just fine I'd think.

SherriFL's picture
SherriFL

"Well, I guess I just thought since I didn't have the gadget, it wouldn't come out right. 

How long would I need to hand knead it?

 

CatPoet's picture
CatPoet

Sweet roll/ sweet loafs

75 gram butter

100 ml sugar

1 tablespoon of dry active yeast

500 gram plain flour

250 ml milk.

1/4 teaspoon salt.

Warm the milk to finger warm, not hotter. Remove from the stove and pour into a big bowl.
Chopped the butter up and add to the pot and melt on until halft is melted and stir in to the milk.
Add sugar, a hand full of flour, salt and yeast. Stir. Now add the flour stir in until sticky and then
pour out on floured surface and knead more until it soft, glossy and not sticky dough.

Leave to rise for 30 minutes under a cloth

Stuffing
50 grams butter
2 tablespoon of sugar
1 tablespoon of cinnamon

Stuffing 2

½ cup applesauce

½ tablespoon of cinnamon

Stuffing 3

Nutella.

Mix this together.

Roll the dough out to a square 25cm X50cm, spread out the stuffing and roll up like a swiss roll.
Slice the doug 2 cm thick slices, lay on a baking tray with partment paper or you can place the rolls into muffins tins.
Leave to rise for 40 minutes. Remember to heat up your oven to 225 C, for my oven this take 20 min which means I need to start the
oven 20 min before the rising is done.

Whisk an egg and brush the egg wash on the rolls.
Bake the rolls for 8- 10 minutes.

SherriFL's picture
SherriFL

That recipe sounds delicious and sinful.  Definately would raise my A1C for sure. 

CatPoet's picture
CatPoet

Well it is once in a while food,   I do 2 to 3 batches of these rolls per year and most I dont eat.

Oh and I knead the bread the first time before the first risee about 10 minutes, until it feels  soft,  smooth and  elastic  and after the rise  5 mins and it works fine.