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starter and yeast compare

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jimtr6's picture
jimtr6

starter and yeast compare

in making a batch of dough for no knead bread using store yeast (Jim Lahey's measurements), I also decided to make a batch using a starter that is now nine days old, I used about a tablespoon and a half of the starter for about two and a half cups flour (both batches using AP flour), the yeast dough rose nicely, but the starter dough is like a glue paste and about impossible to work with, any thoughts? The starter is basic AP flour with a little WW thrown in and just equal parts water now nine days old, the starter seemed to be pasty and not very liquidy but I thought it would be absorbed, I added water to make it mixable but not overly, I'm now understanding why they used to use wheat paste with wall paper.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

where you add a little bit to the dough flour. Your 2 1/2 C of flour is about 350 g and your 1/12 T is about 35 G which make for a very small inoculation amount.. The flour and water amount of your dough must be at least 600 g or so. Normally you would want to inoculate this dough with 20% of 600 G worth of levain or about 120 g instead of 35 g of nstarter. This would be fully active and mature levain too. Yours at 9 days old is no where near that. I would think think that after about 24 -36 hours, the dough you made would be near doubling and be about right to inoculate 2 loaves of bread as a levain - so don't throw it away - use that to make a bigger batch of bread. that has 1200g of flour and water in the dough - not counting the levain. If the batch you made doesn't double then the starter isn't anywhere near powerful enough to make a loaf yet.Just as some baking soda to it and make pancakes or english muffins out if it. Happy SD baking.

I want to correct my poor typing an wording.  I would use 120 g of full stength levain that is built up over 3 stages to raise this dough starting with about 5-10  g of stiff starter.  If using a liquid starter and not a levain, I would use 120 g of that.

adri's picture
adri

You know that in no knead bread the final dough will be fermented for 12 hours or more.

With an established starter 20% levain will lead to overfermentation. With 20% levain it will take 2 to maximum 3 hours to fully proove.

Adrian

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

S&F's a sort of defeats the no knead tag if you do them except for shaping?  I do use them to do the final shaping only.  We use 10 - 20% levain depending on if it is winter or summer a and it is ready in about 18- 24 hours just like my other SD breads that aren't retarded but we retard no knead breads most of the time  because they taste better when retarded.

We starter with a 3 stage levain build that takes 12 hours pe4r the following schedule depending on how fast we want things to go.

DoughStarterBuild Build  Build Build  Build Build % of
AmountAmountFlourWaterTotalFlourWaterTotalFlourWaterTotalTotal
8003661411113622228010.0%
80048821171754333312015.0%
8006111128222272444416020.0%
8007141434282890555520025.0%
80081717413333108666624030.0%

So the first 12 hours is just levain build.  Then everything is mixed and left to sit on the counter - no way it would ever be over proofed in 2-3 hours.  .  Our normal SD method would be to mix everything and do 3 sets if slap and folds on 30 minute intervals and 3 sets of S&F's on 30 minute intervals.  This gets you to the at least the 4 hour mark after mixing and no ferment or proofing yet.

With no knead we just let it sit until it doubles about 8-9 hours or so and then shape it with S&F's to get all the gas out and tighten up the gluten,  in a couple hours it is ready for the oven.  20 -22 hours.  If you want to extend the no knead portion to 16-18 hours use the 10% inoculation amount.  This assumes a 70 F kitchen.  The 10% version tastes better and is better yet with an overnight bulk retard added in.

adri's picture
adri

If you want to extend the no knead portion to 16-18 hours use the 10% inoculation amount.  This assumes a 70 F kitchen.

 

10% is too much in my opinion. This is exactly what chraig would use at 70 F for his pizza dough for 16 hours. But he seems to have a quite neglected starter (I think he uses it just for pizza and therefore doesn't refresh it very often). And: Pizza dough has a hydration of about 60%. A 75% hydration dough needs a lot less time.

 

jimtr6's picture
jimtr6

thanks, I feel better, that's why I gave the age of the starter (so technically it's still a culture and not a starter....right?), I sorta suspected it was not ready yet, the dough looks pathetic (a cross between a milkshake and some awful hot cereal), my thinking was that if a quarter of a teaspoon of yeast could make dough and water come alive overnight in 12 hours then a tablespoon of starter should as well, but I have another batch of culture/starter going right now, the pineapple with rye, tomorrow is day 7 on that. As I'm new to this and given that the starter needs more time this would be a good time to get the no knead bread down, I just want to be able to make a bread that has the nice air holes and isn't dense

adri's picture
adri

My no kneed bread has the following formula:

400g flour, 300g water, 8g salt, 8g starter

It needs more than 10 (usually 12 to 14) hours to proove.  And I have a warm kitchen and a starter that is well cared fore for years, very active and refreshed before use. Others with good working starters take 24g (6%) of starter. And your starter is very young. I wouldn't expect it to be that active in just 9 days. (Or maybe just if you had a schedule of feed it 4 times a day).

For my pizza dough I use 1.3% of starter with a fermentation at room temperature of about 18 to 22 hours. I'm not sure how full your teaspoons were, but 1.3% of starter might be, what you had.

About 20 hours is a long time. Ideal for pizza as the dough gets very stretchy and can be tossed very thin. But for bread I believe this is too long. With your starter it would take even more time.

shoshanna673's picture
shoshanna673

Adri, I was just reading your formula for no knead bread.  I often make Lahey's no knead bread successfully, and have always wondered whether it could be converted to sourdough.  I have two 3 year old healthy starters, both 100% hydration, an AP and a 50/50 AP/rye, either of which I could use.  I noted from your post that you use only 8g starter, which I presume works for you OK, but seems a rather small amount.  The other query I have is whether such a long overnight proof (12-14 hrs) is too long or works OK.  I would love to give this a try if it can be done.  

Thanks for any knowledge and experience you could pass on.

Sondra

adri's picture
adri

I've just searched Lahey on startpage.com. His no knead bread will be prooved for 12 hours as well.

In the last hours I'll do stretch and folds every half an hour without degassing. Usually I'll form ciabatte but sometimes even baguettes.

2% starter is very little, I know. But as I've already written, for not that thriving starters 6% might be better. Of course, the temperature of the kitchen also plays an important role. Mine is quite warm.

 

 

 

 

jimtr6's picture
jimtr6

converting from yeast to SD on the no knead bread as Sondra said was my objective, but apparently my starter is still in the culture state so whatever ratio I used didn't matter, although I didn't throw the dough out and thought it would be interesting to observe it, I figured there must be some activity going on  in the dough because the culture I added was responding enthusiastically to every feeding so I know there is life, the dough is still at a very warm room temperature, it will be 48 hours later today (Sunday), is there a limit when dough goes bad? How long after taking starter out of the fridge do you let it sit with the refresh feeding before adding it to the dough? Upon the starter "entering" the dough does it see the flour in the dough as food and start feeding itself and thus producing the CO2 needed for rise? Although my objective was to basically make a nice loaf of bread with texture and air holes, oh ya, flavor as well, I'm finding the dynamics of what actually goes on  very interesting

adri's picture
adri

Refreshing:

I take 1 part starter, 2 parts flour and 2 parts water (by weight). I let it rest at 26°C (78.8F) until it peaks. If the time needed for this is longer than 4 hours, I repeat this process until it peaks in 4 hours or less. (Or sometimes just 5 hours with neglected starters and then I take more. But my main starters I'll bring to 4 hours.)

Therefore, usually refreshing takes me those 4 hours.

This process you can use with your young starter as well to make it a starter with good rising abilities quite quick. But at the moment it might not be anywhere near 4 hours. Maybe at 8 or 9. But you can reduce this time with every feeding.

As for the no knead bread:

Yes, salt and lower hydration hinders the fermentation, but does not stop it. The micro-organisms of the sourdough feed off the flour in the dough.

jimtr6's picture
jimtr6

adri, so when you do the calculating of how much starter the recipe needs your total amount needed by weight is the total of 1:2:2 weight stated above, am I correct? Then that sits at least 4 hours before adding to the dough? How long on an average will the dough sit before the oven? Thanks for your patience

adri's picture
adri

Well, I'll actually prepare more starter than I need and put the rest back to the fridge. As with a lot of breads I don't use direct built (small amount of starter; main fermentation goes on in final dough) but a one- to three-step built of levain/sourdough (main fermentation and flavour building happens in the preferment; 30% of dough in preferment; final dough sits less than 2 hours), I always need more as a seed.

If I have to train an unfit starter, I discard. (Sourdough-Pancakes :))

 

On average the dough might sit/ferment 14 hours until it gets into the oven.

shoshanna673's picture
shoshanna673

Hi

Prompted by Adri's post re his sourdough no knead formula, I tried this using Lahey's no knead formula, substituting 10g of very active starter in place of the commercial yeast.  Am pleased to report that this turned out very well.  My ingredients were:  250g bread flour, 150g durum (semolina) flour, 300g water, 8g salt and 10g active 100% hyd AP starter.  Mixed and fermented overnight at room temp from 1830 hrs till 0730, did 2 S&F at 30 min intervals shaped, and set to prove 1 hr.  Baked in a preheated DO.  Boule was not quite as large as yeasted loaf, but had a slight tang to it and a lovely open crumb.  Will definitely bake again.

Thanks to Adri for his help.

adri's picture
adri

:)

jimtr6's picture
jimtr6

shoshanna, would you consider your dough loose and "wet" with roughly a 4 parts flour and 3 parts water, did the dough firm up overnight? Was your starter made from scratch, I'm getting excited as my homemade starter (pineapple) will be two weeks old Sunday and is really active after feedings (once a day feedings 1:1:1) started with rye  now AP

shoshanna673's picture
shoshanna673

Jimtr6. I was rather surprised that it felt a little tighter than the yeasted one I have made a few times.  It was not overly sticky when taken out to S&F, and was very manageable.  Overall it was very good to work with.  Both my 50/50 AP/Rye starter and 100% AP starter (100% hydration) are 3 years old, and live in the frig with weekly refreshment.  The AP was gifted to me from a fellow local home baker but the rye mix I raised myself with just AP and a small amount of rye (no pineapple).  They have both served me well over the years and are well taken care of.

It is mid autumn here in Sth Australia, however the ambient overnight temp last night was about 18 deg C, which is rather unusual for this time of year. As soon as your starter is ready, go for it. Next time I will vary the flour mix as I have done previously using either WW or Rye or maybe Khorasan, which I have just sourced locally.

Good luck and happy baking!

jimtr6's picture
jimtr6

dabrownman, referencing your chart, for some reason your post just came up about your formula, see if I  have this right, you prepare the starter 12 hours before the starter is combined with the flour and water (final dough), is it 4 hour intervals meaning after the last build or feed, not sure the terminology you wait 4 hours before the final mix, another words hour eight was the last step in the starter preparation 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

is at the 8 hour mark.  My levain doubles after the 2nd and 3rd feedings in those 4 hour periods.  Under normal circumstances, I would retard the levain for 24 hours after it has risen 25% after the 3rd feeding (about 9 hours in) and then bulk retard the fermenting dough at 4 hours after mixing everything together. This retard is for 8-12 hours to develop the flavor more.  I like the crumb of no knead SD but the flavor is not what I want - not sour enough.  These flavor enhancing retards also also help get the baking schedule to fit my personal one.

If you retard the levain, just take it out of the fridge and let it finish its doubling for the 3rd stage as if there was no retard.  I also autolye the dough flour with the water for 1/2 to 2 hours depending on how much whole grain is in the mix  - the more whole grain... the longer the autolyse.

It is so hot here in the summer,  I cut the levain in half and use the 10% levain line and keep everything else the same.  The 12 hour levain build with a 24 hour retard at the 9 hour mark and the 12 hour retard of the dough at the 4 hour ferment mark makes for the  most tasty no knead I have made. 

Happy baking   

jimtr6's picture
jimtr6

so after the last feeding you have roughly 4 hours till you mix the levain into the dough, so 2 hours after the last feeding would be a good time to mix the flour and water and let it sit at room temp and add the levain to the autolysed dough that has autolysed for 2 hours, so this is a 12 hour mark...right? Will the next 12 hours be retarded (in a cooler) or ferment at room temp...or a combination of both?  Appreciate your patience so much!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

say 50% I would autolyse it for 2nhours starting at the 10 hour mark of the levain build so they are ready to go at the same time. If you retard the levain 1 hour after the 3rd feeding then when you take the levain out fo the fridge to finish it 3rd stage doubling then start the levain about an hour later.  The next retard is done in the fridge should you chose to do so.   It is done after the final dough mix is done and the dough has sat at room temperature for 4 hours then 12 hours in the fridge.

The fridge is my friend.  When ever I want more sour or to fit a bake into my sleeping schedule - in the fridge it goes,  At 36 F LAB out produce yeast 3 to 1 so cold retards especial of the starter and levain will give you a higher % of LAB to yeast in the final dough and a more sour bread.  The big complaint I see for no knead, Forkish and Tartine bread is that the sour is very mild - never too sour.  The breads are designed to be mildly sour because that is what most folks like.  When you do things bread wise at room temperate will give you the least sour bread possible.    36 F and 92 F - 93 F is your friend when it comes to sour.  I prefer sour and the more so as the whole grains increase in the dough.

Don't worry about the questions. This what TFL s all about.

jimtr6's picture
jimtr6

LAB, is that the friendly bacteria? I've not put dough in the fridge yet, and have left it in the room where the woodstove is, maybe it's too warm, seems maybe dough may be easier to work with (less like glue and paste) if it's cooler

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

at nearly 50% faster at 82 F as it does at 72 F.  The idea with the no knead method is that time is what formulates the gluten instead of any kind if kneading.  So, the faster you make things happen the less gluten will be formed and if enough.gluten isn't formed then the bread will be flat.  I personally think a temperature of 68 -70 F for the counter work is about right and anything over that is moving things to quickly if it isnlt going to be refrigerated.  More time means better flavor too.

LAB is the term for all lactobacillus  - some good some bad.  Your stable and mature SD starter probably has several of the 5-6 or so heterofermentative varieties that usually take up residence in symbiosis with the half dozen or so yeast varieties that like to live with them.  They are all good once the culture is stable in about 2 weeks or so and the pH gets low enough.