The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Wild yeast over commercial yeast?

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hamletcat's picture
hamletcat

Wild yeast over commercial yeast?

What is the difference between using these two?  Is there an advantage, disadvantage?  I am just curious because I have just been fermenting my bread dough for 12 - 24hrs using commercial instant bakers yeast.  I'm wondering if I should be using a sourdough starter instead.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

IY  ferment in the fridge at 36 F. insead of on the counteradn you just used a pinch of yeast as well.   I think you are heading for goo dough city personally.   

chris319's picture
chris319

With Baker's yeast, your bread may not have much of the sourdough flavor you expect.

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

There are several differences between the two, which you can find by searching forums and reading old posts. However, here are a couple of really big ones. First, the commercial IDY will raise the dough much more quickly. Wild yeast takes several hours to ferment. If you are already fermenting 12-24 hours, your process may change some, but the timing can be kept pretty close to the same. As DA said above, hopefully, your long fermentation is happening in the fridge with IDY. But, with wild yeast, it could happen at room temp. Secondly, in 12-24 hours of fermentation with IDY, you still won't get near the flavor profile that you get with a sourdough starter containing wild yeast. The SD culture is already full of lactobacilli that work together with the wild yeasts to create a wide spectrum of flavor profiles, depending on how it is maintained and used.

There is really nothing wrong with using both types of yeast, for their strengths. You could use commercial yeast when you want a more predictable rise time, or when you want the flavor of the bread to come from the ingredients, rather than from fermentation, like for sweet breads. The SD is better for maximizing flavor complexity from few ingredients. Some of the best bread in the world has only flour, water, starter, and salt in it. There is even nothing wrong with putting a little commercial yeast in your SD bread, to make it rise quickly and predictably. Lots of bakeries make bread using sourdough only as a flavor ingredient, and commercial yeast as the leavening agent. You just don't want to put it in your starter itself. And, if you shorten the overall fermentation time of the SD bread by adding IDY, it will not be as flavorful as it can be, but it could still be more flavorful than using IDY alone.

chris319's picture
chris319

There is even nothing wrong with putting a little commercial yeast in your SD bread, to make it rise quickly and predictably. Lots of bakeries make bread using sourdough only as a flavor ingredient, and commercial yeast as the leavening agent.

And their product tastes like it. I speak from first-hand experience on this.

There is really nothing wrong with using both types of yeast, for their strengths. You could use commercial yeast when you want a more predictable rise time

With all due respect, the O.P. is not operating a commercial bakery and does not have to adhere to a rigid production schedule requiring a predictable rise time. Might as well tell him to make yeasted bread and forget the fuss and muss of sourdough.

There are reasons having to do with the complex balance of microorganisms in sourdough that wild yeast and baker's yeast cannot be considered interchangeable. I know you have the best of intentions but this advice is giving the O.P. a bum steer.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

with David's post at all - or in any way.  I find it kind, very balanced and truthful too. Your comment is over the top .....besides being incorrect.  I have warned you before not to make your posts personal  or mean spirited and am doinng so again.  At no time did Davad say IY and SD were interchangeable,  He merely pointed out that each has their strenths and that they can be combined in recipes as they certainly are - all the time. 

Be kind - Nuff said 

hamletcat's picture
hamletcat

Wait.  I am using the commercial yeast on the countertop when I do the fermenting.  I usually on put it in the fridge if I need to slow down the time.  Ie. when I have to go out and can't prepare the dough for final proofing until later.  Why does it need to ferment in the fridge, because that is not what I have been doing..

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

and methods.  Usually, an IY recipe with a normal amout of yeast would be over proofed at 12 and way over proofed at 24 hours unless the IY was a just a pinch or the dough refrigerated right after mixing,  Once we see what you are doing it will be easier to help you figure it out..

Happy baking

hamletcat's picture
hamletcat

Basically 3c. white bread flour, 1 1/2 tsp salt, 1 1/2c water and 1/4 tsp instant yeast.  I knead it using the dough cycle on my bread maker, which takes about 2 hrs.  Then I put them into pans for proofing.  I usually leave them 12hours on the countertop.  Although sometimes I will put them in the food dehydrator if I need them to rise faster. Or I will put in the fridge if I need to slow down the fermentation.  Ie. I need to let it go longer than 12hrs for example.  

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

for the  flour per cup (stir the flour spoon into the cup and scrape off method) and 236 g for water you are around 84% hydration which is very wet for a white bread dough.  i wouldn't be at that high a hydration until I was around 40 - 50%% home milled whole wheat.  You would definitely want to put it in a pan - or call it a ciabatta.  A quarter tsp of yeast isn't a lot but with this wet dough, it should be very well proofed in 12 hours on the counter.at 70 F and resemble a big wet poolish.    I think you would have better luck cutting the water down to 1 1/4 cups to get the hydration down to 70% or so for this bread.

Then it wouldn't take 2 hours of kneading in a bread machine to get the gluten developed.  2 hours is a lot of kneading and 1 hour and 20 minutes more than  Michael Wilson  would do slap and folds for his 100% spelt bread at 100% hydration. 

I say, cut the water down and see how that works for you.  

chris319's picture
chris319

Sounds like a good recipe for yeasted white bread. If you're happy with the finished product, why worry about it?

True sourdough will have a tangier, more sour flavor.

chris319's picture
chris319

3 C bread flour = 381 g flour

Your current recipe using 1 1/2 C water = 355 g water

355 / 381 = 93% hydration, quite high

1 C water =237 g

237 / 381 = 62% hydration, more realistic

Try cutting back to 1 C water with that amount of flour

hamletcat's picture
hamletcat

Oh wow.  I didn't know any of this.  Thankyou everybody for the feedback.  I'm going to try some adjustments and see what happens.

What does over-proofing mean anyways.  I'm a bit confused by that term.

hamletcat's picture
hamletcat

Thanks for those links.  Especially that last one that explains how the hydration affects the bread.  I don't have to ask that now, because that was really confusing me.