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A bread, darker than the ingredients would let you assume!

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adri's picture
adri

A bread, darker than the ingredients would let you assume!

This is my latest bread:



It has quite a lot of ingredients that would make you guess it would turn out with light color:
~ 9% altus of white wheat bread
~ 24% white wheat
~ 32% white rye

It just has 35% whole rye.

But:
I cooked a part of the rye with diastatic malt for some hours at just below 65°C and then shortly at about 85°C.

This give a highly aromatic and slightly sweet paste, as diastatic malt is mostly active at these temperatures. The 85°C will kill the activity of the malt so it won't interfere with the further baking. (And: I roasted the altus (yes it was really white bread))

On this pictures you can see the main flavour giving ingredients:

Aroma paste, white rye sourdough and roasted and ground altus.

It is a slight modification of this bread: http://brotdoc.com/2013/12/23/westfalen-kruste-westphalia-crust/

Have a nice evening and happy baking,
Adrian

Floydm's picture
Floydm

Really nice.

adri's picture
adri

Thank you very much!

isand66's picture
isand66

Nice idea and great results.  I have not used Altus in a while, but toasting it seems like a great idea to get a little extra flavor out of it.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

And a beautiful loaf too!     

The white altus looks like cocoa or coffee.  Very dark roasted!

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

for being 65% white:)). Lovely indeed.

I wonder how far you can knead that mess with the Bosch Compact. I have it myself, but I never even tried how it copes with rye.

adri's picture
adri

As Rye doesn't develop gluten, you don't need to "knead" it. It is more a mixing of ingredients.
This little helper for 54 Euros (74 USD / 44 GBP / 81 C$ / 82 AU$) does the job for one bread very well: http://www.amazon.de/Bosch-MUM4405-K%C3%BCchenmaschine-MUM4-Liter/dp/B00008K5XU/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1392653797&sr=8-3

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

is so much one can learn as a baker from them.  Historically, many Russian rye breads and others too, red non diastatic malt is cooked with rye whole grain and or rye whole berries wth water to make a dark paste that adds color and flavor to the dough.  White diastaic malt adds the enzymes required to break down starch to the sugars so that LAB and yeast can really have a feast to feed on.  But an added benefit is that if these sugars are not entirely consumed, the extra sugar in the dough will also caramelize during baking to make a darker crust and crumb color too.

I'm thinking if you used red malt in the cook instead of diastatic malt and used white malt added into a long high temperature autolayse of the whole grain or whole grain flour, you would get the best of both worlds and a bread that is even darker and potentially a bit sweeter too.  I do put red and white malt into most whole grains breads since I grind my own whole grains and the resulting flour is unmalted with diastatic white malt.  I like to put the red malt into the whole berry and or whole grain scald and put the white malt into the long (at least 4 hours) whole grain high temp around 92 F) autolyse.  The best of both worlds.  The scald doesn't take hours this way, the process is much easier  and I think you will like the results with less effort.  Give it a go and see which way you like best.  If I'm not using a scald I still put the re malt into the autolyse forte color adn flavor it provides

It makes a huge difference in color and taste as your experiments prove. n well done and

Happy Baking, 

adri's picture
adri

"red" malt usually is not diastatic.The trick to the trick is using diastatic malt in the cook/scald bu Maillard browningt for the first two hours of cooking just heat it to a temperature where the enzymes don't degenerate. Red malt therefore wouldn't work.

In this quite long period of time an a temperature where the malt is most active, it already creates enough flavour. By heating up to 85°C at the end, the malt enzymes are inactivated. Without this or with adding active malt to the final dough, it will interfere with the crumb and make it less solid. I don't like this with rye bread, especially with higher hydration, that already tend to have a sticky crumb. In the scald it is much easier to control and it gives a way better aroma. Actually I never have seen any recipe of a rye bread made with more than a homoeopathic dose diastatic malt in the final dough; always just wheat/spelt/... breads.

Even though, the scald was really really sweet after cooking, the bread didn't taste sweet at all. The yeast and lab already had the sugar during bulk (50 minutes) and banneton fermentation (45 minutes). With adding diastatic malt to the final dough, of course they have more to eat during fermentation as without the malt, but as the malt is more active at higher temperatures i.e. at the beginning of baking, it will especially boost the oven spring.

I don't like too much oven spring with rye breads.

Furthermore: With rye there is no gluten therefore there is no autolyse. Most fermentation will be done in a lager amount of preferment, not in the final dough. As the final dough keeps it's structure due to its "slimyness", not by gluten structure, a too long fermentation would give you a flatbread. ;)

The color is not due to caramelization but from Maillard browning. (Link to Wikipedia).

I really like your input! It makes me actively think about what I'm doing. And I'll search for a rye recipe with diastatic malt. I promise. (As I had very little (rather unsuccessful) tries with diastatic malt in rye, I would prefer to stick to a tested recipe.)

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

diastatic since it is dried at temperatures around 325 F or so.   The Maillard reaction is for high % proteins (usually meat) in conjunction with amino acids in the protein.  Using all urpose white flour as an example it has about  1g of protein in every 10 g of flour so the Maillard reaction works great to brown a very small portion of the weight of the flour - 10% or so,

But there is another more important non enzymatic browning process, like the  Maillard reaction which is also non enzymatic, called pyrolysis, that browns, through the same high heat, all the carbohydrates in the flour - sugar, fiber and starch without any amino acids being present.

Since these carbohydrates will make up at least 7 g of the weight of 10 g of AP flour, 7 times more than the protein, it is this reaction, pyrolysis, that accounts for almost all of the browning of the crust an crumb in bread baking.

So, even though the Maillard reaction is at work  to brown the small amout of proteins in the bread, it is the pyrolsis that does most of the work in browning.  The white malt enzymes added to the low temperature scald as you do, also preform a great favor for you when incorporated into the autolyse to break down the carbohydrates into the food that LAB and yeast need to eat but they also create much of the excess sugars that pyrolysis will brown up with the fiber to really put the dark color on.

So whole grain breads that have more protein also have way more fiber too.  But the 10 to 1 ratio of carbs to protein will be close enough for figuring,

When a bread comes out of the oven pale it isn't because there wasn't enough protein and amino acids for the Maillard reation to brown to give the bread 10% of its color,   The reason it is pale is because the carbohydrates have been consumed by the LAB and yeast and there isn't enough sugars and  left over for the pyrolysis to brown the bread the rest of the 90% it should.

I think if you put red and white malt in your scald and your autolyse the color will be even darker, the flavor deeper more pronounced the rise will be better - and not just for rye breads.

As a side note, I also have no problem retarding rye breads overnight at 36 F. They bake up  much better that way if you ask me.  Here is some mor info on caramelization and  pyrolysis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrolysis

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caramelization

Happy Baking

adri's picture
adri

The links you added while I was writing the first respond show: Fructose has the lowest caramelization temperature, which is 110°C (230F). The others are way higher at 160°C to 180°C (320 - 356 F).

I didn't even bring my scald near that temperature.

1:48 am. Usually bread makes you get up early (the professional bakers are already at work) but now it also makes me go to bed late ;) Where's my floss?

Now really have a good night!

Adrian

adri's picture
adri

Sorry iff my text seemed rude or something. It was really late yesterday. Thanks for the input, really. I really apreciate it.

Looking at the falling numbers of rye, and how high they have become in the recent times, it really might be worth trying some more traditional recipes with artificially lowering the falling number by adding some diastatic malt.

I've just read, that some time ago, rye sourdough leaven was built at about 50% hydration. Now 65% to 100% is common. (Because of the high falling number).

 

Adrian

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

that amylase activity in rye has decreased a lot! Just in a couple of years my rye starters have shown a decreasing fermentation rate, to the point of being totally comparable to my wheat starter. Actually I don't see anymore any rising advantage. The sweet maltiness in my rye breads has gone downhill, too. I thought I was suddenly making some mistake, but if falling number are going high all pieces fit.

I want back my almost sprouted rye:(

adri's picture
adri

If you use (parts) whole rye, wouldn't it be easy to store the seeds badly yourself before milling them? ;)

There won't be any reproducibility without a lab. Who's gonna tell my wife that we cannot go on holidays the next couple of years as I nee a lab? ;)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Could it be it is only happening in the white rye?  I run into all kinds of rye when I travel.  I have to adjust my rise times with each different flour and location.   I'm so happy with the Rogers Dark Rye although I don't know the falling number.

Mini

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Mini. Less and less fermentation.

Adri, I've had my good share of rye flour clouds floating in my apartment for hours before setting :). At the moment I'm searching something easier (although I still have a 5kg bag of malted rye seeds that will save my breads).

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

to speed up souring of the rye.  

spelt is known for it's high amylase  

adri's picture
adri

As to "Handbuch Sauerteig" it happenes with all kind of rye, also it was reassured by an older master baker.

I guess this is because of seeds breeded towards this quality and because of better information from the research centers to the farmers.

There also seems to be a minimum quality for trade, as I read articles that stated that in 2010 some percentage of the harvest didn't have the quality for trade (and they were not talking about ergot).

I wonder what they do with the discard?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

depending on what the problem is.  Sprouting is usually fed to the animals.  Fermented and stored.

adri's picture
adri

The protein to starch ratio for the flour I used was 1:6.6

If I had used wheat it would have been 1:5.3

I don't doubt, that there is pyrolysis going on, which, as you are talking of sugars, is equivalent to caramelization. But in this case you wouldn't even be able to see the browning with just your eyes. If you mix sugar with water and let it sit at 65 degrees, will it get brown?

The funny thing is that cream caramel or milk caramel, if the sugar isn't cooked separately at high temperatures, gets it's colour from Maillard reactions. Maybe it is just a misunderstanding: In German as well, when people brownen a steak, sauce, ... by causing Millard reactions, they speak of "caramelizing it"?

As I learned, the main browning happens through Maillard reaction for which the "reducing sugars" created by the malt play an important role. Reducing sugars have the ability to act as a reducing agent and they combine with the proteins in the. The proteins have already been there, but the reducing sugars for the Maillard reaction weren't present.

I know that the bread above is no "rye bread" with just 67% rye. But with just 24% non prebaked wheat, it still behaves like a rye bread. Therefore no autolyse.

 

The remark with retarding rye breads I don't get. (Maybe because it's almost half past one in the morning over here and I need sleep. :) ). Do you mean that retardation equals long fermentation and therefore you add malt for the microorganisms in the sourdough to have food? I believe that at 36F (that's just 2.2 degrees) the activity of the MOs is so low that the existent food will suffice.

Have a good night

Adrian

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

is there are three ways to brown food.   Mailllard browns protein, usually meat, the presence of amino acids and reducing sugars.  Pyrolysis browns carbohydrates (sugar, fiber and starch) with a lack of water.  T Water also inhibits the Maillard reaction as we knowing meat is wet it will stew and not brown.   Both usually require high heat above  150 C  to really start to do their browning- and are non enzymatic.  Maillard effect prefers a base or neutral ph.  The malliard effect can happen at lower temperatures but it takes hours days weeks months or years the lower the temperature gets - Serrano ham takes years Both take place in baking bread.  Then there is the emzmatic ways that areall  low temperature under 65 C

When I make caramel of any kind it is done by pyrolysis and caramelizing the sugars separately when there are no proteins and amino acids present.  Then the cream or milk is added to stop the process at what ever color you want .  If you try to make caramel with the liquids added in the beginning be prepared for a very, very long wait before any color starts to show up

The caption is taken from the website below where the temperatures a times of the Mallaird effect are generally listed.

http://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/29926/what-temperature-does-the-maillard-reaction-occur

At very high or very low temperatures, Maillard reactions are often secondary to other processes such as caramelization and enzymatic browning.

To summarize, here's a helpful poster that shows effects at various temperatures.  Briefly:

  • Above 400F - mostly caramelization, with the possibility of burning with prolonged heating
  • ~330-400F - increasing caramelization with higher temps, which uses up sugars and thus inhibits Maillard at the high end of this range
  • ~300-330F - Maillard progresses at a fast pace, causing browning noticeably within minutes
  • ~212-300F - Maillard gets slower as temperature goes lower, generally requiring many hours near the boiling point of water
  • ~130-212F - Maillard requires water, high protein, sugar, and alkaline conditions to advance noticeably in a matter of hours; generally can take days

Below 130F - Enzymatic browning is often more significant in many foods than Maillard, but Maillard will still occur over periods from days or months to years, with progressively longer times at lower temperatures

Since you are using such a low temperature  of 65 C - less than 150 F where enzymes are very active, it could be that much of your browning is coming from enzymatic browning.  So your process could be using all 3 ways to brown bread.  

Except for pumpernickel bread that are always kept at 160 C or below for many hours with a lid on to keep the moisture in and reducing pyrolysis, the Maillard effect is at its best causing most of the browning.  But,  if you start the same bake at 200 C for a half and hour and then falling to 175 F for another 30 minutes before taking the temperature down over many hours the pumpernickel will be slightly darker in color on the outside and inside.  Mine do at any rate.

For other non enriched breads baked at temperatures over 230 C where steam is applied or held in for the first 10-15 minutes the steam keeps the pyrolysis from happening to any great degree, but once the steam comes out pyrolysis will brown the bread in 10 15 minutes.  Yes, the Maillard effect is taking place in a small degree too but it is being overpowered by pyrolysis which takes over in an increasing way at temperatures over 175 C. 

Millers put diastaic white malt in the their flour for 2 reasons ,  To make sure that there are enough enzymes present int eh flour to provide enough food for the wee beasties and to make sure there is enough residual sugars left over after fermenting for the pyrolysis mainly and the Maillard effect a little to brown the bread.

We see this all the time on white breads where, when under steam, they hardly color at all but once the water vapor goes away they brown up nicely - due to pyrolysis.  But a much darker color of crust and crumb can be achieved in the same bread by adding white malt or increasing the sugar in the dough by using a sugar filled liquid in place of water in the dough - like the soaker water for prunes, apricots, raisins, cranberries etc.

On the other hand, if you add vital wheat gluten (55-65% protein) to your dough, the Maillard effect will take advantage of the increased protein in the dough to brown the bread to a greater degree.  But the vast majority of browning is done by Pyrplysis.

I know you kill off the enzymes in your low temperature browning process by raising the temperature to do so.  I think if you don't do this and allow them to thrive in the resulting dough, you will like it better.  I've never had any problem with enzymes running wild in a whole grain autolyse for up to 8 hours   So, I'm guessing your low temp brew won't hurt a non autolyse dough any either - but you will have to test it.

I have to tll you I add diastatic malt, red malt, VWG and even yeast water to SD rye breads to get them to perform and taste better and open the crumb so they aren't so heavy  I autolys the home milled whole grains with the malts and VWG for at least 4 hours too.  I get much better bread this way

No worries - Happy Baking.Adrian

adri's picture
adri

Adding wheat gluten to a rye bread feels like cheating, doesn't it?

What's so special about vital wheat gluten? What's the difference to standard gluten powder with 80% protein? Or better: What more is in there, as it just has 55% to 65% of protein (Wikipedia says minimum 75% else it would be gluten flour???)?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

than I would putting 9% white wheat bread altus, or 5g of diastatic malt into the mix.  Both of these are made from natural bread ingredients the white malt is probably made from barley the gluten is probably made form wheat that has the starch washed away with water leaving the protein behind.  Most bread grain, but not all grains, have some natural gluten and the enzymes found in malt. .For me gluten is gluten adn a little more of it in the scald is just more protein to brown with teh Maillar effect.  Folks add all kinds of things into bread that naturally occur in the grain to improve it - like bran or wheat germ and so many others like sugars of all kinds.

Some would say that adding 9 g of commercial yeast to help try to lift a heavy SD rye bread would be cheating but I'm not one of those either.

Salt only appears in grains in trace amounts.  Salt tolerant grain hybrids grown in salt water conditions have a little more salt ending up in the grain though.   Still, we add more salt salt for extra flavor, to control the ferment and proof times and to strengthen the gluten.  Hardly anyone, except possibly Tuscan's, calls salt cheating do they?  Is it cheating to call a bread Jewish Deli Rye when it is really a 70% wheat bread made by a prodestant?  Maybe:-)

I'm a libertarian in most things including bread so just about anything goes except possibly using ingredients found in the auto parts store:-)

I just wanted to post back to you my thoughts on how to make this fine bread even darker, possibly taste better and get your ideas about them

In summary

When ever i try to do a low temperature scald at home, I just can't keep the temperature below 65 C on the cooktop's lowest settings and certainly not for hours.  I could do it in my mini oven set at 65C knowing that is actually at least 5C lower than the set point.  This is how I dry the sprouted grains when make diastatic malt and works fine for that even though the  resulting ground grain remains white instead of turning red even after an hour of frying.  Still, it takes a long time with lots of stirring to get the Maillard effect or even enzymatic browning to take place with your scald.  Su vide cooking, where the scald was sealed in a plastic bag, would be the perfect way to to do this low temperature scald and never have to worry about over heating.

Since whole rye has about as much of these enzymes as any grain does and the same ones found in diastaic malt,  I would cut the white malt in the scald to 2 grams and add  3 g of red rye malt to the mix like you do for a Borodinsky scald.  Is the red rye malt cheating?  It is nothing more than 3 g of whole rye that was heated to 350 F to make it that dark brownish, red color with the Maillard effect and pyrolysis. Nothing more than what you are doing with the scald adn the Maillard effect.   Would you expect Red malt to turn the crust and crumb a darker color while supplying  better flavor - absolutely....and your post is about things that surprisingly do this so maybe this would be cheating? Only, if you thought that doing the low temperature scald, as ythe recipe calls for, wouldn't result in a very deeply browned mix at the end.

The other 3 g of diastic malt I would put into a 4 hour autolyse of the dough flour mixed with the scald and toasted altus to help break down the carbohydrates into sugars that will eventually be  eaten by the wee beasties with hopefully more of them being available as post proof, residual sugars that will be browned in the oven by the Maillard effect and pyrolysis to make an even darker crust and crumb.

Sort of off the subject of browning, I would not put any commercial yeast in this bread.  Not because I think it is cheating but because it speeds things along and takes away from the sour and other flavors that could be developed in the bread with a longer ferment and proof.

If I wanted to open the crumb some more without using commercial yeast, I would  substitute a yeast water rye poolish.  The trade off is that YW mutes the sour flavor.  But it might be one to make since the commercial yeast does the same thing and the much enhanced grain flavors are already masking the sour in this bread.

It is nice have a new kind fo process, like a low temperature Maillard scald as opposed to a Tnang Zhong roux,  to get the mind thinking about what happens in bread when do these different differnt things to it.

I think 80% gluten powder is exactly the same thing as vital wheat gluten at 55% - 65% here in the states.  I'm thinking it is just a different name separating two cultures that speak the same language.  The 80% just has more starch washed out of it,  When i make wheat gluten I never know what the final % of gluten there is in it and have to guess.   I start with whole berries where I know what the protein content is but some of the protein is washed away in the bran and harder bits after grinding the berries as fine as possible.  Weighing the final dried ground amount and a little math gives me about 68%% protein.  The original whole grains had much more water in them than the finished powder so the part of the weight loss was water and factoring this in gives me about 63% protein - but it is just an educated guess.

Your 100% rye bread as is -  is just great and beautifully executed - as was your post,  Now i know my German baking apprentice, Lucy, will have to  try to improve on this recipe and eventually pumpernickel it in the end::-)

Happy baking adri

 

adri's picture
adri

Hey, there's always a lot one can learn from your posts!

Cooking low temperature scald:

I've never heard "Sous Vide" before. I know, every professional bakery has a machine for preparing this kind of scald, but you're right, at home it is a much harder task. What I did, was not much different from "Sous Vide". I've got a yoghurt machine that looks like this:  It has a thermos container that you fill with hot water and an inner box, that you usually fill with milk and the yoghourt microorganisms. Of course, it won't keep the temperature at 65°C, but it does keep it near that temperature long enough, that it is very little work with an instant read thermometer and an electric kettle. Just twice I replaced parts of the outer water with boiling water until it had the desired temperature again.

Another machine that keeps the temperature quite accurately at the same level is my electric food dehydrator. I might try it, putting sealed plastic bags filled with the water/malt/flour mix in it.

 

About cheating:

Well, what is? Is adding enzymes made with GMOs, that could have been in the flour already, or are, but just very little, cheating? It's hard to draw a line, actually.

I like to experiment, yes. But when I give a bread to friends, I tell them if there was yeast in a sourdough bread or wheat gluten in a rye, the same way I would have liked a baker to declare all ingredients. Not doing so, and even worse, not being able to, as they use premixes was one of the reasons (not the main reason though) of starting to bake myself.

 

Tang Zhong is also something I want to try soon. Thanks for reminding me. It is lower in temperature (also 65°C, I think) and 1:5 in flour to water ratio as compared to 1:4 in traditional scald.

And now I'll have to try making my own gluten powder. :)

Actually I wasn't the goal to darken the bread, but give the special kind of aroma. The darkening is just a side effect.

The main sourdough flavour also doesn't come from the fermentation of the final dough. About 40% of the flour was prefermented over about 18 to 20 hours. The flavour is already in there. Adding commercial yeast wouldn't change the bulk fermentation much. The difference might be 50 minutes with and 60 minutes without yeast. The same goes for the final rise. With a high amount of sourdough leaven, it mainly affects the rise.

Guessing from your Pumpernickel stories: Your apprentice, is she from NRW?

Adrian

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I was even thinking about the liner to the ice cream maker being set into the rice cookers or hot pot as a buffer to even out the high and lows of thermostat control.  "The 'ol double boiler trick."  All these toys I have in Austria so I just have to live vicariously thru you all.  

What I do have is a hot water boiler and I can set the temp, with is usually around 65°C.  Now doesn't that make you think of dishwashers and bathtubs?  I suppose if I did this slow cooking often I'd put an iron kangaroo pouch in the hot water line near the boiler to have a heating chamber 24-7.  or what if I took a styrofoam container, cut it so it would fit over a hot water pipe, the pipe then running through the container to heat the inside chamber?  I would need some kind of lunch size container with a lid (two holes the size of the pipe (enter & exit) and a slit or two between them so the container could be fitted over the pipe and then taped back together.  

If the cut lines are hook shaped, the container could even hang in the rafters or near the ceiling in the utility room.  In my house I have to remove some of the insulation off the pipe first but I see plenty of exposed hot water pipe here in this rental flat.  

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Dog from a kennel :-)  I have a version of the bread to bake today.  I combined the altus with the scald, some red, white malt, 10 g of dried minced onions and some VWG also included in this mega scald.   Put the whole mess in the mini oven at 175 F with a temperature probe for 3 hours.   It took 45 minuets for the inside middle temperature to get to +- 65 C and staid there for another 2 1/4 hours.  Came out nice and dark for the lot.  Increased the whole grains to 63% and it ended up 40% wheat and 60% whole rye (since we ran out of rye) also out some VWG and white malt in the dough flour too..  No commercial yeast was used,

It smells great and it is on its 1 hour proof before the oven.  It will probably take much longer to proof than that since there is no commercial yeast .  So far so good

adri's picture
adri

How much of the rye did you ferment?

If you (pre-)ferment about 33% of the whole floury, and have a dough rest of about 45 minutes, 1hour proof can be enough. (Given an active starter).

Send pigs (not just dogs)! Ask your apprentice if she is from NRW. I'm pretty sure she'll answer ENN ARRR WAUGH ;)

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

315 g of freshly milled whole rye with 315 g of water and 31 g of whole rye very sour starter  I ended up at around 60% whole grains for my bake.  I have to tell you this bread came out ....FANTASTIC!  It is just wonderful - thanks fotrposting it  Here is the link .  I threw the altus into the low temp scald and added red malt and VWG  to it and put white malt in the dough flour.  No commerical yeast was used.  I used 40% AP flour too.  It didn't come out as open as yours but the great flavor made up for it

Lucy’s Take on Adri’s Westphalian Rye

Happy Baking

pjkobulnicky's picture
pjkobulnicky

First of all, nice bread Adrian. And, great picture; well composed.

I learned a lot reading this post ... and not just how little i know about the role of enzymes in bread although that was my initial reaction. The entire thread reminded me of days long ago back in college when I signed up for an advanced course without taking the pre-requisites and struggled just to learn how to listen and talk the language of the discipline. I may have to go back and re-read this a few more times because I was catching on more towards the end. 

 

Thanks to all ... Paul