The Fresh Loaf

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Collapse of loaf top

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satimis's picture
satimis

Collapse of loaf top

Hi all,

I was following below video;
Italian Herb Bread in the Bread Machine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIR-ZCfvN1g
baking the bread

Ingredients:
(750g loaf)
water (lukewarm)    1 cups 3 tbsps
all purpose flour    356g
milk powder        1 tbsp
sugar            1 tbsp
salt            1 1/2 teaspoons
Parmesan cheese, grated    16g
Oregano        1 tsp

rosemary leaves    1 tsp
yeast        1 tsp
butter        30g


Program setting
French Cycle: (Weight 750g loaf)
Crust color    light
Kneading 1 (slow)  3 min
Kneading 2 (rapid)  30 min
Rise 1  32 min
Kneading 3 (rapid) 15 sec
Rise 2  30 min
Kneading 4 (rapid)  15 sec
Rise 3  55 min
Baking  53 min
Total time  3:23 hrs

The texture of the bread is nice but the top of the loaf collapsed.  27 min before the end of baking the top was perfect without collapse, viewed through the viewing window.

What is the cause of the collapse?  Any remedy?  Thanks

Rgds
satimis

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

I am no .expert, but it looks like a classic case of too high a hydration.  By my calculations,  1 cup water 237 grams,  3 tb is another 44 grams for a total of 281 grams water divided by 653 grams flour which yields 78% hydration.  That would okay for a whole wheat flour, but i would cut back on the water for a regular ap flour.  You might want to check the bread machine forum to see if they have another version of that recipe with a lower hydration.

MisterTT's picture
MisterTT

try halving the amount of yeast. I've only ever had one bread machine and the formulas that came with it used way too much yeast. Like Barry says, the hydration's a bit high, but it shouldn't collapse just because of that.

satimis's picture
satimis

Hi, Thanks for your advice. 1) I found following recipe; Italian Parmesan Bread for 2-lb. Loaf Breadmaker http://www.hamiltonbeach.com/italian-parmesan-bread-for-2-lb-loaf-breadmaker.html 1 1/3 cups water 4 1/2 cups American bread flour but having; 1/4 cup olive oil added which increases water content. 2) Could you please help me to use following calculator:- Hydration Calculator http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/22944/dough-hydration-calculator How to arrive 78% hydration. Thanks Rgds satimis

shopkins1994's picture
shopkins1994

You need to take the weight of the flour and multiply it by .78. The only way to know that is if you weigh your flour because your scooping of flour is not the same weight as me scooping flour. One gram of water is equal to 1 hydration. So if you have 1000 grams of flour, 780 grams of water would be 78% hydration. 

 

satimis's picture
satimis

Hi shopkin,

>>You need to take the weight of the flour and multiply it by .78.

Is it the ratio of "flour:water"? i.e. for 1000g flour add 780g water?

Thanks

satimis

shopkins1994's picture
shopkins1994

Yes, hydration is a ratio. So 78% hydration is 780 grams of water per 1000 grams of flour. 50% hydration would be 500 grams of water per 1000 grams of flour. 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Satimis,   using a scale will give you more consistent results, and everyone's cup of flour will weigh a different amount, but assuming 125 grams   http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/flour_volume_weight.html

So that is 562 of flour,  306 water,   53 g oil,    and I come out at 53% hydration, which sounds too low, but again, I don't use a bread maker.  

BTW,  I don't think it is overproofed because when I over proof, which is pretty common, it doesn't collapse in an inverted dome, instead it maintains its overall shape and just gets smaller.

 

 

This was the site for the oil conversion

http://convert-to.com/558/olive-oil-amounts-conversion-with-nutritional-facts.html

satimis's picture
satimis

Hi barryvat,

Thanks for your advice.

Usually I use scale for dry ingredients including butter not by volume.  It is more accurate.

I wonder how to use following scale:

http://joshuacronemeyer.github.io/Flour-and-Water/

I understand "Flour" and "Water" sliding scales.  What is "Starter@Hydration"? "Weight"? "Rec. Salt"? "Starter Ratio"?

Can you help?  Thanks

satimis

 

 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

I actually know this one.  Your recipe calls for bread machine yeast.  Starter is a different form of yeast, typically not used in bread machines.  On this board, posters often refer to starter as sourdough and there is an entire board on that.  Sourdough starter is part flour and part water, so you have to account for the water in determining  hydration.  Again, I don't think many use sourdough in bread machines because the timing for sourdough is longer than machine yeast

satimis's picture
satimis

Hi barryvat,

Ah I see.  Thanks.  Sourdough fermentation (rise) takes longer time, about 8 hours.

I never try it because I don't have baking oven, only microwave oven which is NOT suitable for baking.  I haven't decided whether purchasing a combo steamer OR a combined "mircowave, baking oven and steamer" oven made by Panasonic.  The later is much cheaper in price but the steam temperature can't be adjusted.  I'm now spending my time concentrating on "Sous Vide"/Polyscience" cooker.  I'll come back to oven later.

satimis

 

Buster1948's picture
Buster1948

If you were trying to multi-task by "sweating to the oldies" while it baked, the vibrations could have affected it.

loafgeek's picture
loafgeek

You could salvage that as a bread bowl :)

shopkins1994's picture
shopkins1994

Wow, what a good idea.

 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Satimis, You can get good results with a bread machine once you get a good recipe, so don't give up.  I have just started playing around with sous vide myself. It has worked pretty well for fish and ribs, but I haven't had as much success with some other foods yet.  If you want to buy a unit, i am a big fan of the Anova unit - very compact, easy to use, and priced very well. http://anovaculinary.com/    

satimis's picture
satimis

Hi all,

Have another round baking a loaf according to;
Italian Parmesan Bread for 2-lb. Loaf Breadmaker
http://www.hamiltonbeach.com/italian-parmesan-bread-for-2-lb-loaf-breadmaker.html

Reduced ingredient quantity to half and converted all volume measurement to weight.

water 158g
salt     4g
sugar      12g
olive oil    27g
bread flour    270g
dried, crushed basil     1 tsp
dried, crushed oregano     1 tsp
grated Parmesan cheese     14g
instant dried yeast     2g


Program setting:
(Basic Bread)

Weight 500g loaf
Crust color   light
Kneading 1 (slow)   3 min
Kneading 2 (rapid)  31 min
Rise 1   26 min
Kneading 3 (rapid)   15 sec
Rise 2   25 min
Kneading 4 (rapid)   15 sec
Rise 3   55 min
Baking   37 min
Total time   2:57 hrs

The loaf top still slightly collapses.  Texture is nice.

 

 

Comment would be appreciated.  Thanks

Rgds
satimis

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

It certainly is a vast improvement, you might want to try again and cut back the water another 10 or 20 grams and see what happens.  As long as you like the taste, it is great bread no matter how it looks.

satimis's picture
satimis

Hi barryvat,

I'll try reducing 10g water in next round.  It is a nice taste, tender and good smell bread.  Thanks

Rgds

satimis