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dough softening, dissolving, not rising?

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katyajini's picture
katyajini

dough softening, dissolving, not rising?

I made Oatmeal Molasses Bread. 

The recipe is simple.  Pour boiling water over the oats, add molasses, butter, salt. Cool a little then knead in the flour.  Rise, shape, rise, bake

I tried the recipe in two ways, because I am trying to gain experience with adding whole grains to breads.  One, I did as above.  The second I soaked the oats in small portion of water from recipe at RT till completely moistened, 5 hours.  Then kneaded that in with the other ings.  I wanted to see how soaking at RT made a difference in texture and taste in the final bread. 

Both the doughs formed beautifully and formed the WP test.  I let them almost double, patted down with stretch and fold and left to rise second time in the fridge ON.

The next day the BOILING-water-oats dough hadn't risen very well, just about doubled.  The SOAKER dough had more than tripled.  As I shaped the loaves, the BOILING-water-oats was much softer, very, stretchable (not so elastic), easy to shape.  It was not smooth.  I thought it was the oats.  The SOAKER-dough was very resilient, bouncy, smooth.  While proofing in the pans the BOILING-water-oats dough seemed to get more flabbly, didn't proof well and finally fell a little  The SOAKER-dough proofed very high.

Of course the SOAKER-dough baked into a nice big, brown loaf.  The other dough fell even more in the oven, took longer to come to 205.  The final taste,  the SOAKER-dough had a sweet taste,  The other dough bread though not bad, had tinges of sour and bitter.  And it was denser and took more time to brown in the toaster.

After this very long winded introduction, this is my problem.  I have this happen to me three times now. I think I am following instructions but a batch of dough just softens and weakens, doesn't proof, begins to smell bad a little then makes a not so nice sunken bread.  Every time there had been a ON soaker involved.  Maybe coincidence but I thought it was because I hadn't added salt to the soaker.  That were runway protease activity started that chewed on the gluten developed in the dough  So I was going to add salt to the soakers from now.

But this time the dough softening happened not to the SOAKER-dough but to the one that had boiling water added to the oats and used soon after.  Boiling water kills enzymes. 

And then, each and every ing. is the same in the two doughs I prepared and they were prepped side by side at the same time. 

So what is causing a batch of dough to occasionally 'rot?'

If it is not the soaker then I seem to have no control over it!

I cannot imagine that it is a microbial infection from my kitchen.  I touch both doughs with my hands without washing in between. And I think my kitchen is clean.

I really need help with this one  I hope you can provide me with some ideas.

 

Thank you!

 

 

 

 

embth's picture
embth

What are you using for leavening in your recipe?  There are many more experienced than me on the list…but it seems the dough that falls sounds like it has over fermented.  

katyajini's picture
katyajini

Yes it is some kind of over-fermentation.  I used yeast and the same yeast and same quantity of yeast in both doughs and they under went fermentation side by side  same temp, same time,  That's why its so confusing, 

PaddyL's picture
PaddyL

I usually use the boiling water over the oats, but I don't let it sit for 5 hours before adding the rest of the ingredients.  After barely an hour, it's cool enough for me.  At what point do you put in the yeast?

katyajini's picture
katyajini

yes, of course when I did it by pouring boiling water over the oats its cool enough in 30-35 mins to proceed with yeast and flour.  The waiting for 5 hrs was when I added a small quantity of RT water over the oats to moisten them fully (separate dough from same recipe made by a different method).

PaddyL's picture
PaddyL

Got mixed up between the two.

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Interesting experiment.  I would agree with embth in hie/her conclusion that your loaf where you used hot water simply fermented more quickly and thus was over fermented by the time your RT loaf was ready for the oven.  

Your description of the dough as well as how the  final loaf tasted suggests this conclusion so maybe now that you know that it isn't the salt causing you problems you might try decreasing the yeast a bit in the HOT soaker loaf and see if that makes any difference.

The only other thing I can think of at the moment is that maybe the RT soaker oats didn't have enough water at the beginning to be fully hydrated so they pulled more water out of the final dough thus producing a firmer dough that would take longer to ferment….but you have stated that your did allow them to fully hydrate over those 5 hours…..( I mentioned this because I am preparing a loaf tonight that has dry oats added to the final dough.  I intentionally leave the final dough 'loose' because I know the oats will absorb water as the dough ferments overnight and I will have a much firmer dough in the morning without it being too dry…..)

I would love to know how you finally solve this mystery!

Take Care,

Janet

katyajini's picture
katyajini

Yes, there certainly is some unwanted chemistry going out of control here.  But from the little experience I have, from the sight and smell of it, I can't tell what that could be.

Thank you Janet for your astute insight into details.  I do remember the HOT soaker dough was swelling fast as I left it on the bench to clear up and did a few SFs.  SO that maybe something, however I never saw it go past the 2X mark..... In the other dough, the grains continuing to absorb water and firming etc maybe a very important.  I will observe closely for this next time I am doing this stuff again.

Just something I remembered.  It maybe an important factor, or might not matter.   Every time that I have gotten away with using a cold ON soaker that had no salt in it was when I had significant amount of yoghurt in the dough.  The acidity of the yoghurt may have controlled the untoward enzymatic activities.  Then also, yoghurt is teeming with live, happy bacteria and may have prevented the few bacteria that started to grow in the cold soaker (inevitable) from getting a foot hold in the dough to use it for themselves.  Yoghurt in the proportions I am using don't affect yeast aversely at all.   

I too was thinking of adding few flakes of dry oatmeal to the dough at the end of kneading.  Does it result in chewy, nubby texture in the bread?  Is it for this effect you add it?

Thank you so much for your help.   I will figure it out.

 

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Yes, the yogurt would make a difference due to the bacteria it contains.

I am not sure how the dry oatmeal effects the texture in the end because I can not eat my breads.  I give them to friends and they have never noted a difference but then I have never done an experiment with dry vs cooked for them to compare with either.  I know the dough feels the same in the morning - nice and soft and pliable.  Easy to shape and strong too.

Good Luck!

Janet

katyajini's picture
katyajini

Ahh! I forgot you don't taste your bread.   Let me see what I have to report to you.  :)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

makes a difference.  Check your temperature after pouring boiling water over the oats.  More can be found under Scalding flour temperatures  or read this discussion, mostly about rye but some of the links down the page might help you...

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/11812/rye-amylase

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Mini,

Just wanted to say thanks for the link.  I love your 'research' skills.  I have never read the discussion and it was great as were the discussions within the original that linked to other discussions on scalds….

I wish there was a way to make finding these 'archive' posts easier to locate for research challenged people such as myself!

Take Care,

Janet

katyajini's picture
katyajini

Thank you Mini.  A lot of information.  A little over my head at this moment, I have to read it carefully tomorrow.  All of you are amazing.  In just a few days I have learned so much that is imminently usable. 

katyajini's picture
katyajini

OK  I made this again both ways.  On separate days.

The COLD soaked oats worked perfectly again.  :)

The BOILING-water-oats-dough didn't work again. After the second rise in the fridge I could see and feel the gluten tearing and melting under my fingers as I was shaping.  The loaves did not proof much and then fell.

?????????

I was so careful.  Watching out for over-proofing, reducing the yeast.  There were no off flavors this time but the dough dissolved. Its the attack of the proteases!  At least attack of the gluten-ases!

As the only difference is how the oats are treated (soaked)  before being kneaded into the dough, it must be the soaking process that sets off something.  But I cannot fathom what that could be.

One thing I know is that the original recipe proceeds by pouring boiling water over the oats and goes onto to add flour, yeast while still quite warm 110-120) and proofs once, shapes, proofs and bakes.  Everything is done warm and finished in 4-5 hours.  I am adding this slow cold retard and that could be introducing the unknown.  Every blog I have read makes this bread the quick way. 

I will probably solve this but I don't want to make it the center of my existence or even my bread baking existence.  I wasn't exactly following the recipe but can make it work in some other way.  But I don't exactly want to live with the phobia of pouring boiling hot water over oats either.

Heaven forbid this happens to anyone else, but if anyone ever sees this and has a clue please let me know!

Thanks for listening to all this blather.

 

Janet:  I did a loaf where I folded in old fashioned rolled oats into the dough after kneading, before rising,  The oat flakes hydrated and grew huge, in place, after ON in the  fridge, but did not disintegrate.  After baking I could not detect a distinct texture in the bite (what I had hoped for) but the flakes were big oat flavor bombs.  Just as surely as if you had bitten into a pumpkin seed and known, you  knew the oat was there.  The oat flakes bring oat flavor right to the front far more directly that kneading all that oats into the dough.  

In both methods the oats completely blend into the dough (imperfect as the experiments were), and the texture of the bread is very, very, soft.  The molasses overwhelms the flavor and when I reduced it, the oat flavor was lovely.  I don't think I like molasses that much.  Dark brown sugar would do better for me.

Thanks!

 

 

 

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Morning,

This is a real puzzle to me…. I would expect the opposite results due to the enzymes begin intact with your cold oat soaker.  Only other thing I can think of is asking  -  did you use the same amount of water in both of your oat soakers?

I just baked a 7 grain loaf that used a hot 'soaker' on the coarse grind of a mix of 7 different grains.  They were cooked like I would cook a pot of oatmeal.  They were added to the final dough once the gluten had been developed somewhat.  First attempt at the formula did not have enough water and I got really dense loaves that took ages to proof.  Second attempt was perfect.  I boosted the HL from 100% to 130% - which included the milk in the hot soaker.

 Both of my doughs were strong but both were also baked using sd and you are using IY which does behave differently and I really don't have much experience baking with IY as the primary leavening agent so that could be where the problem is happening.

I also baked a loaf last week that had dry oats added without soaking like you other loaf.  It was a fine dough too but the bread did dry out more quickly when being eaten which I attribute to the oats absorbing moisture from the loaf.

I understand you frustration and your wanting to move on to other breads.  I have done that too and have found answers to my problems in other bakings somehow.  Hopefully that will happen for you too and I would love to hear what you do find out in the end.  This is an 'interesting puzzle.

I hope too that someone else with more experience making these kinds of breads with IY chimes in with their ideas.  

Take Care,

Janet

katyajini's picture
katyajini

Thank you Janet :)

Like you, I think I will find an answer.  It will come from continuing to work on other things,  

Truly, if it is not trouble at all, would you please share how you made your 7 grain bread, approximate proportions or recipe or anything that you don't mind sharing?. That's exactly the kind of bread I am working towards and want to make. I would adapt it to IY.  I even got 7 grain cereal to experiment with. I am finally being able to feed my son, who eats nothing but macaroni and cheese, chocolate chip cookies and chocolate cake, breads with whole grains in it and he is loving it. (How did that happen?). But we all are loving these well flavored, well textured breads.

Thank you Janet, I have enjoyed, am enjoying,  growing through this process with you.  

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Here is the formula but I have to warn you that your results will be totally different because I use sd and because I grind my own flour.  These differences do make a huge difference in outcome. 

Overall Formula

Flour   100%

7Grain Mix    17%

Milk      65%

Water   60%

Salt       2.3%

Butter   5%

Honey   4%

NonDiastatic Malt   1%

RECIPE

I based my loaf off of 650g of flour.

Leaven contained 15% of the total flour therefore 98g and water was 68g

Total leaven weight was  166g

Hot Scald

Grains  111g

Milk       425g

Honey     26g

Malt         13g

Butter      33g

Final Dough

Flour      553g

Water     400g

Salt           15g

Method

In the morning I cooked the grains until they were soft and then let them cool on the counter until evening.

I feed my leavens 2x during the day.  Each build taking about 3-4 hours to ripen.

In the evening I combined the final flour, leaven and water in my mixer.  Just combining the ingredients into a shaggy mass and then letting the dough sit for an hour.

After one hour I added the rest of the ingredients in increments as they were incorporated into the dough.

Once mixed and the gluten somewhat strong I let the dough sit covered in a bowl out on the counter until it had expanded about 25%.  It was then folded once and placed into the refrig. overnight.

In the morning I allowed the dough to warm up to room temp. for about 2 hours in my proofing box set at 80°.  It was then shaped and set for final proof which lasted about 3 1/2 hours.

 It was baked in loaf pans at a temp. of 350° for approx 40 minutes.  (I preheated the oven to 475° before adding the loaves and then steaming them for 10 with my oven off - it is convection and I don't want the steam blown out of the oven.)

Good Luck!

Janet

katyajini's picture
katyajini

Janet, you typed all that for me, from my one humble request?  Thank you so much.  

Before I say anything, your breads must be out of this world, you put such thoughtful energy and time into it.  You are out there singing opera and I am over here singing twitty pop songs.   Its joyous to know though,  that there is so much good things to learn.  

Yes the outcome will be very different.  But I am happy to start with proportions that work and move with the flow.  Lets see how it goes.   I will be able to adapt the recipe, I think!

Something about the cereal mix you use.  I didn't see any notes on the products as to what kind of 'grind' the mix is.  I got a 7 grain cereal mix from Whole Foods.  Its not all powdery or all flaky.  Its a bit of everything.  The biggest pieces are the size of a kernel of wheat broken in to 3 or 4 pieces and whole Flax seeds. I have seen a 7 grain mix made by Bob's Red Mill but haven't actually seen the grind.  Is there some where special that you get 'coarse grind'?  

I hope my endless questions are not getting to you.  Thank you so much for your recipe.  I am honored to work with what you developed over time.

:) 

 

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

I have a mix of whole grains that I buy. It is a combination of red and white hard wheat, soft wheat, rye, triticale, oats and barley.  The grains are whole and I mill them on coarse so they turn into the consistency of a steel cut oat.

You flatter me with your praise.  I am just a learning home baker too.  Not at all singing opera.  I just muddle around with formulas that people post here and ones that I have found in books.  Most of all I have learned is from this forum and I still have a ton to learn which is why I like baking so much.  Always a new mystery to work with.

Take Care,

Janet 

katyajini's picture
katyajini

;)

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

a similar bread all the time with steel cut oats and boiling water. Make sure the mix is not above 105 or it will kill off the yeast. Just measured water temp of boiling water sitting on the cold counter for 40 minutes and measures 123 degrees fatal for yeast. I usually mix up the ingredients and let sit for 2 hours..I don't do an overnight rise in the fridge. I mix all but the salt autolyse 15 minutes...knead for 10 bucket rise 45 minutes turn 45 more shape and rise for 30-60 and bake...never fails. Good Luck!!

katyajini's picture
katyajini

fotomart1  thanks, after what I have reading, thinking, I am going try once without the ON retard in the fridge and see what happens.  I think there maybe something to proceeding quickly.  Thanks so much for posting!

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

thing that you must consider is letting the oats cool to room temp.If not you will end up with kneaded dough way beyond the target temperature of 75 degree dough..good luck.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

for soaking oats, and scalded oats were recommended to stand 24 hrs before using, said only that more flavour and sweeter.  

Then there is this and scroll down to Oats:

http://thenourishinghome.com/2012/03/how-to-soak-grains-for-optimal-nutrition/

Haven't seen the answer yet but maybe it will stand out to someone.  Heat, starch, amounts of resistant starch may also be influencing the rheology.  Try searching: rheology of scalded oats   

Following this trail:

colloidal oatmeal  ---> saponins (soap like reactions, maybe you made some soap and made the gluten slippery?)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17373175

katyajini's picture
katyajini

Mini, what a wonderful article you sent me.  I knew from a long time to soak grains for a length of time, drain if possible and then cook, for better nutrition and digestibility.  But there is so much more to it.  I will read further from the included links.   

Now as for colloidal oatmeal and saponins, there maybe something to that.  The rolled oats when soaked after pouring boiling water over them get more and more colloidal the longer it cools.  It really does. Looks almost like thin conditioner. The colloid would break down if you cooked the mixture.  But  it might not upon kneading.  So it could create saponins in the dough.  That would be a bad for living organisms and big molecules.  Maybe thats why the recipe says to proceed while still warm and finish within a few hours.  I was reading a oatmeal bread recipe in Bernard Clayton's book where a lot of rolled oats is soaked with boiling water.  He instructs, let the mixt cool to no more than 130 F.  Then slowly beat in the flour and yeast with a wooden spoon.  Then, further storing in the fridge ON, as I did, may exacerbate the saponin effect if true, longer time to do their dirty deed.  fotmat1, never ONs in the fridge either.  

Well Mini one of these days I will try it.  I will soak the oats in boiling water, cool to say 110, then prepare the dough.  Half the dough I will retard ON in the fridge and the other half I will finish right away.  Lets see what happens.

This too could turn out to be a enlightening experiment.  Or bust.  

Lets see.

 

Thanks Mini. 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

a difference if mixed with flour and chilled or just scalded oats left by themselves to chill.  Those recipes that chill scalded oats and then have an overnight (ON) retard, retard the oats separately.   Also it does occur to me that scalding and boiling them for a few minutes may make a difference.  Some bacterial spores (if present) are not killed with just scalding and could flourish in the new colloidal medium.  Or there could be more food and available sugars there speeding the fermenting at a rapid pace and thus breaking down the gluten matrix quickly or attacking the protein bonds.  The amount of run off fluids may hold the key.  If the oats absorb all of the scald, maybe less "soap" is around to bond with other substances.  

Another thing to try might be to roast the oats first before scalding.  This is often done for soup, roasting in a little butter and onion before soup stock is added.  The oats will keep their shape.  Will bond to the dough better if dry roasted.  Roasted oats are very tasty.

katyajini's picture
katyajini

If the saponin hypothesis for gluten breakdown is true, then scalded oats left by themselves to chill ON would not cause as much mischief in the dough.  And scalding and then boiling them a little would also minimize damage to the dough.  You see these recipes, knowingly or unknowingly maybe protecting the dough from hurt, in the other ways you mention.

I will try roasting the oats too at some point.  I actually have made roasted oatmeal soup and loved it. 

:)

adri's picture
adri

Not that I have much to offer, but a simple question:
Do you use the same amount of water in the soaker and in the scald?

How much oat do you use or you just post the percentages of your formula?

clazar123's picture
clazar123

I make kefir (a fermented milk product) and I love making Whole wheat bread. The first couple times I used kefir in place of milk, my loaves seemed fluffy and delicious. Then I had a run where no matter what I did, if I added kefir or kefir whey to the dough, it would disintegrate and I could pull it apart into a clump that had what looked like hairs (the gluten strands). Awful.It barely rose and if I didn't bake it almost immediately, it dissolved into a puddle.  I  could add kefir to Ap flour based doughs but not whole wheat. I stopped adding kefir to WW. I  never figured it out so I hope there is an answer here. Now that I have a way to take pictures, it hasn't happened again and I really don't want to waste the flour to try and make it happen.

katyajini's picture
katyajini

WOW! clazar,  yours may have happened for a different reason but what I am experiencing in the dough, the gluten disappearing, seems to be the same. The dough just tuns into a puddle as one watches. What an awful thing.  

And yes, please don't waste flour to recreate the mistake.  

I have been having very good effects (luck?) with yoghurt though, both in how the dough handles and the taste of bread. I have to learn how kefir is different from yoghurt.  I just buy kefir from a local Arab grocer and use it in my cooking.  It seems like yoghurt, a little milder and thicker maybe?

Thanks for sharing your experience.  Its good to know this kind of thing happens to the best of us.  

This forum is invaluable to slowly find our answers.  They will come.