The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Overproofed?

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acebaker's picture
acebaker

Overproofed?

Does this look like overproof to you? I've been having trouble recently getting my dough to rise because it's gotten pretty cold lately. I think I've gone to far the other way now.

I usually do a preferment the day before baking, then bulk proof the final dough in the fridge overnight. In the morning I divide and shape then leave in a couche until baking. 

The change I've made is to put the bulk dough into the oven (on proof) setting in the morning to complete the bulk proof.

This is the result.

adri's picture
adri

Well, usually, when there is still so much oven spring it is a sign for the dough having been underproofed.

acebaker's picture
acebaker

What you're seeing isn't ovenspring. The dough started to tear before I put it in the oven. The dough spread and dropped in the oven, which only increased the tearing.

adri's picture
adri

This tearing might have different causes, one of which indeed is overproofing.
There might be other reasons. Weak gluten structure, too much liquid, the handling, ... or a combination of all.
In a wetter dough sourdough performs better - easier to overproof.

I use a silicone form in such cases.

As the proofing step is the thing you changed, well, yea, good chance that it was overproofed.

How does it look like when you cut a slice?
Did you add any yeast?
What was the hydration?

acebaker's picture
acebaker

I use my own recipe, with the combination of all purpose and light rye flours I also add 4% vital wheat gluten. The dough did seem a little wetter than usual, which I'm now thinking might be caused by the cold humid weather. No where for the liquid to evaporate to, like there was in summer.

I don't add yeast. If my starter is looking a little tired I add a slice of apple for a pick-me-up.

This dough, the total hydration is 68%.

I'll get a picture of the interior tomorrow.

Thanks

acebaker's picture
acebaker

Another interesting note is that the baguettes I made with the same dough at the same time were less affected. They are proofed in metal perforated baguettte pans. I'm not sure why that should make any difference. The loaves are well supported by my hemp couche during final proof.

Thanks for your help!

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

I second adri's comment that it is under proofed for the same reason.

 You might want to try increasing your pre-ferment % a bit to compensate for cooler temperatures.

Janet

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the pale crust colour is also crying out over proofed.  

If your recipe has over 40% rye, try developing the wheat flour gluten first before adding the rye & starter and see if that helps.  As the amount of rye increases in the recipe, it becomes more important to raise the pH in the dough so the rye can stretch before it wears out.  If a lot of rye is in the formula, warm proofing can rip the dough as the gas is being produced faster and expands more than the dough can stretch.  Proof cooler (not cold) and thus slower. slowing down the yeast in the dough.  Rye blends tend to like cooler slower rises.  If you have a spare room that is warmer than the fridge but cooler than the kitchen, that might be the place for a long cool rise.  

acebaker's picture
acebaker

Oh, thanks Mini. I didn't know that rye doesn't like a warm proof, though it makes sense when I think about it. I've been trying to counter the cooler temps by bulk proofing in the oven (on the proof setting), but it sounds like what I ought to do is just let it proof longer at this cooler temp. I'm pretty sure the fridge is getting the dough too cool.

The rye percentage is not that high, only about 5% in the final dough and 30% in the starter.

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

to your loaf.  But any amount of rye will speed up fermentation.  You mentioned adding apple to your tired starter but if the starter is tired and shows a lot of decreased activity, you might be better off refreshing the starter instead of using one that is full of rapidly deteriorating enzymes.  The dough could be just too tired to hold itself together.  

I would find a flour with a higher ash content for longer ferments as opposed to adding more gluten.

acebaker's picture
acebaker

Do you mean by that regular feeding? I feed my starter before and after using. Water:all purpose:rye (10:7:3). Is there something else meant by refreshing?

What do mean by ash content? I was taught that higher ash content was a lower quality flour and what makes a good bread flour (strong gluten production) is the protein content.Could you explain why I would us a higher ash content flour, please? 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

How much starter to your S:10:10 feeding?  1?  10?  And do you use it when it is at full volume or peaking?

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2360/ash-content-and-protein-s 

acebaker's picture
acebaker

Thanks for the link to ash content. I think the more I learn, the more I realize there is so much more to learn.

acebaker's picture
acebaker

Again, I am confused by your language. What is the difference between "full volume" and "peaking"?

I try to use the starter as close to to point just before it falls.

I have to admit the feeding ratio is not that regular. The day before I bake I calculate how much starter I will need and I feed the starter so that I will have enough for baking plus around 100g to save for next time. The day I bake I feed that remaining 100g with 100g (50g water, 15g rye, 35g AP). Hope that makes sense.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

less, actually 50g of flour as food.   Hmmm, I would be feeding it at least 100g flour.  To me, it looks like the starter is underfed.  Might want to save only 50g starter (or less) and feed 50g water and 50g of mixed flours.  But maybe you got cold temps or you are chilling the starter right away after feeding.   If you feed more flour (more than the starter) when building for use, you give the yeasts a better chance to multiply.  That might be the solution, beef up the yeasts in the starter  (!)  the rise will then be quicker before the integrity of the dough is exhausted and falls apart... like in the posted picture.  

Full volume, peaking, all the same in referring to the fist rise after feeding.  Sounds right.  Catching the peak before it falls, just checking.  Warm proofing the starter or build when the food is less than the ripe starter amount translates into incredibly fast fermentation.  

adri's picture
adri

"I feed my starter before and after using. Water:all purpose:rye (10:7:3). Is there something else meant by refreshing?"

How much starter do you use? This is missing in the formula.
If you'd use (STARTER:WATER:ALL_PURPOSE:RYE)(5:10:7:3) by weight, I'd call it refreshing.

If you use more starter, the mos (How do you abbreviate micro-organisms?) won't have enough food.
If you use less than (2.5:10:7:3) I woudn't call it refreshing anymore.
____________________
"What do mean by ash content? I was taught that higher ash content was a lower quality flour and what makes a good bread flour (strong gluten production) is the protein content."

Usually more ash goes along with more protein.
Also the ash is good for the taste in bread - not so much in pastry.
More gluten isn't always good. More "developed gluten" is good to a certain extent; eg. long chains are good.
More but short chained (not developed) gluten will not give you more stability in the dough but just a more rubber/leather like chewing experience.

How long did you knead the bread? On my machine I would at least have 10 minutes.
Did you do the window-test?

adri's picture
adri

Well actually, the more rye you use, the more you treat it like a rye-bread. Which is: no developing of gluten at all. A 40%-rye bread is still a wheat/spelt-Bread so it doesn't apply on such low percentages of rye.

And to be able to be baked properly, rye dough needs to be sour. This means lower ph. If you rise the ph level, the natural acid of the sourdough might not be able to lower it sufficiently.
And this is actually what you describe with cooler fermentation. On cooler fermentation, the bacteria that produce the sourness (lower the ph) get more active compared to the yeast. (It gets less active as well, but less lesser than yeast.)

rottenfood's picture
rottenfood

I'm w/ Ace - Thank You, Mini. 'Seems I learn good things whenever you post. I appreciate it.