The Fresh Loaf

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Inadvertent 50% Rye & Swedish Rye Variation

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Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Inadvertent 50% Rye & Swedish Rye Variation

I have been on a higher % rye kick for a while now and decided to bake up a few to stock me up for December.  When I say higher %, I know these aren't quite high, but for me, I haven't really tried anything higher then 40% prior to this.  Maybe a Danish Rye qualifies as higher than 40%...

I baked up a Swedish Seed Rye using my Swedish Rye formula and simply adjusted it by using dark rye instead of medium rye.  Also added some sprouted organic spelt flour in lieu of my typical spelt flour.  Even though it will still be a day or two until the flavour develops properly, I can already taste the dark rye coming through loud and clear.

Starting out as a 40% Rye, the other 2 loaves I baked up turned into a 50% Rye inadvertently.  I realized during the mixing process that I added too much water.  I had to off set this hydration with more flour.  I ended up using an extra 95 grams of dark rye flour.  The loaves came out decent but with little oven spring.  I noticed that the bread tastes quite sour so I have a feeling I over fermented both the sour and the bulk.  The extra bran in the dark rye was probably the culprit in the over fermenting.  Still came out decent enough for a slice of cheddar or knob of liver pate.

John

 

Comments

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

and the 50% rye also looks fine and similar to Lucy's 40% rye Tzitizel version 3 for the crumb - that we are just polishing off today for br4eakfas lunch and dinner:-)  If it is really sour.... then I would like it even better.  Doesn't look over proofed from here. Nice baking John and

Happy Holiday Baking  

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Thanks dabrowny...perhaps not over proofed but maybe under proofed?  I have seen many 50% loaves on here with much greater lift and oven spring than this. 

The Swedish rye looks a bit like meat loaf on here...when loaded on here, it lost a lot of brightness and colour.

I am sure that Tzitizel rye is receiving some nice fatty meats that would make me jealous.

Happy baking (and eating) to you too!

By the way, so excited to be going to San Francisco for the holidays!  Will check out Tartine and all the other great bakeries that amazing city has to offer.

John

Franko's picture
Franko

Hi John,

Fine looking loaves you've made and just the thing for the cold snap we're having right now. A couple of slices of either and a hearty soup or stew to go along with them and you'll be good to go. Great stuff! Have fun in SF and hope to see a post on your experiences there when you return.

Cheers,

Franko

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Thank you Franko.  Cold indeed.

I will be leaving Boxing Day and staying for a week.  Will keep my camera by my hip the whole time.

Perhaps a beef and barley soup tomorrow....take care

John

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

John, 

These look great!  I still urge (okay, push…) you to go for more rye…..I have no doubt that you can do it really well and these loaves testify to that - especially your Seeded Swiss.  

Janet

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Thank you Janet.  I appreciate the push, but I still need to get more confident with 40 and 50 + % ryes.  I am very fumbly with the shaping and unsure of ferment and proof times.  I am happy with my panned ryes however.  These seem so much easier to hit due to lack of shaping required and little or no kneading etc.

I wish there were more videos out there of making rye breads.  There's an overload of sourdough and baguette style breads but almost nothing for rye!  The few I have found are quite...ahem...lacking in quality of finished product.

If you have any links, please do share.  I think this may be a call out to some of those rye experts on here to post some videos of their own!  AHEM, again!

John

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

The trick with handling ryes I learned from Mini.  Wet hands and utensils.  Really no problem at all to shape.  Just like a lump of clay in your hands that you mold.  I stay by the running water if I need more water before I am finished.  All do go into a pan so the dough just gets pressed down into it making sure the corners are filled too.  I use a wet spatula (also a Mini trick) to smooth it all down.  

I put a marker on the outside of the pan so I know when it has risen but you can also tell by sprinkling a bit of flour on top which will expand as the loaf does.  I bake when it is about 75% risen - give or take….but experiment.  

It really, really is no big deal!!!  Really and that is coming from me who was afraid to venture forth and it took me a good 2 years of daily baking before trying - which I now see was stupid.

I keep my loaves covered and Franko just posted good baking times on a loaf he just did which I know you saw too.  Bake times, as with all breads, can be adapted to meet your schedule and you will find that out by doing it too.  I did over bake in the beginning and now I have it pretty close to where I want it and will try some of what Franko suggested.

Anyway,  rye really isn't that big of a deal to shape and bake. REALLY.

Janet

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Sorry if wasn't clear Janet.  I meant that I have no problem with shaping panned rye loaves.  I have issues with non panned free form loaves.  The shaping is very sticky and since I have never seen the process, I don't know if the tightening the surface is the same with sourdough loaves, etc.

John

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

I wouldn't do a high rye freeform.  They need a pan to support them due to the HL being quite high.  WIthout a pan they would simply flatten out like a pancake.  They have no surface to tighten due to no gluten like wheat flour.

Have you done a search on Mini's Favorite Rye?  I am thinking she might do that one free form but I do know she bakes it in a DO for support.  It is a different type of formula though.  Doesn't include a soaker/scald as do Andy's ryes.

Janet

isand66's picture
isand66

Very nice looking loaves John.   I'm glad to see you posting again and commenting.

As far as shaping of free-from rye goes, there is nothing much different than any other free from loaves.  Use wet or oiled hands and try to get a nice tight shape without man-handling the dough.

I have made many Jewish style ryes with this method and the shaping has seldom been an issue.

I hope you enjoy your trip to SF for the holidays.  I have been to San Diego which I loved but have not had a chance to go to SF yet and I'm sure you will love it.  Hopefully you will also get a chance to visit some wineries while you are in the area.

Ian

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Hi Ian and thank you for your comments.  I have a feeling that my shaping problems with rye comes more with the lack of development in the dough than the shaping itself.

I have been to both SF and SD before.  Love them both for different reasons.  Nice places to visit for sure.

I am afraid I probably will not make it up to wine country, but I will make up for it in all else.

Take care and thanks again.

John

varda's picture
varda

Hi John,  Both of these look good.   My reading comprehension is a little weak so Swedish on left, 50% on right?   The Swedish looks great and loaded with seeds.   The crumb of your 50%er looks excellent.   Too sour?   Really?   Is that even possible for a hearty rye bread?   I don't even use my rye sour until it knocks me back a step when I smell it.   If I learned anything from my short rye class at KA it was that.    Take care.  -Varda

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Thanks again Varda.  Yes, the Swedish Seeded Rye is on the left.  Similar to a Danish Rye (Rugbrod).  Actually, the sour in the 50% rye has died down a bit over the last few days.  It was more pronounced when my greedy mitts couldn't wait to taste it.  As you know, all rye breads get better in time.  I wish so much that I could have attended a KA class.  I read your post when you came back from it...must have been so much fun.

Take care.

John

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

You are doing so well!    

The rye videos I posted (other thread) from Breadtopia ought to help you.   He is very relaxed and shows everything.  I don't add molasses but the consistency of the dough is right on for a 50/50 Wheat/Rye and there is use of flour.  Make the dough a little bit stiffer if you use wet hands.  Refrigeration is used to help shaping and the amount of wheat supports that method as well as the extra mixing and folding... it's for the wheat gluten, not the rye in the dough.

Free standing:  I also think the use of the cloth could be debated, the dough appears stiff and floured enough to use the cane brotform  for a short final proof.  You will like the video I'm sure.  He is a little quick showing the risen dough in the form before tipping out.  Trick here is not to overproof.   Part of the rise fills the form sideways before going up against gravity. So it won't rise more than a centimeter, maybe two, max.  before baking.

GO for it!

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Thank you so much!  Kind words from the Queen of Rye herself.  How is her majesty finding the cold Kootneys?

 I appreciate your praises but I am afraid the 50% rye, as good as it tastes, could have been shaped better, and had better rise.  I think I under proofed a bit.  Also, the right angle in photography helps ;)

John

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

To start off a morning!  We aren't buried in snow (yet) I understand that the hills around here tend to collect the moisture, not the valleys.  Easy to spot the ski hills!  The bears have gone off to sleep.  We're going south for the holidays as well.  

Don't play your loaves down, they are excellent.  I even zoomed in on the crumb and they are very evenly bubbled and ingredients well distributed, nice crust colour all around etc., etc.   (... I see a dramatic turn of events, fortune and laughter in the very near future.  Someone you haven't seen in a long time will re-enter your life.  --> crumb reading<)  :)

Mini

 

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Top notch bread, John, and superb photography!

I know, it may get scary handling a sticky paste of an all rye , but the rewards are worthwhile. Besides, once you get used to handling a paste, you'll enjoy making them.

-Khalid

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Thank you Khalid.  I will get the hang of it after baking rye breads more.  The photography for some reason lost a lot of colour and brightness when uploaded.  But thank you!

Looking forward to your next one.

John

holds99's picture
holds99

Both breads are beautiful.  It doesn't appear that you docked them and you still got excellent oven spring with no splits in the crust.  Maybe it's the photo, but the loaf on the left, the pan baked loaf, appears to have more seed than the free form loaf on the right.  regardless, both turned out very nice.

Howard  

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Hi Howard.  Good to hear from you.  I actually only docked the Swedish Rye (on the left).  It also is the only loaf between the two that had any seeds, and yes, I love how much goes into that bread.  You should give the Swedish Rye a try. Very easy, no kneading and no shaping.  Just mix up and pan!

Take care.

John

bakingbadly's picture
bakingbadly

Hey John, I think you might find the following link interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v5iLBOyJmA

The video shows a baker handling / shaping a dough with a high percentage of rye. He moulds it into shape, like a clay sculpture!

Best wishes on your endeavors,

Zita

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

So wonderful!  Thanks you, Zita for posting it.  

That big ball of squishy fermented rye dough!  I just want to wet my hands and scoop/pinch out a big glob!   I didn't see any docking, must be because the loaf was so recently handled.  I think as he strokes the wet top if the loaf, should he feel any weaknesses, he would correct any large bubbles or hollows.  Cool.  

There was also something brushed on the surface while it was cooling that we didn't get to see, I noticed a dramatic change in crust shine, seeing brush strokes.

Mini

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Hey Zita.  Thank you so much for that video!  Very interesting.  I very much doubt I will attempting a rye process like that any time soon.

Take care.

John