The Fresh Loaf

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90% Rye - 2kg loaf?

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Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

90% Rye - 2kg loaf?

Hey guys, sorry for the last minute thing, but in the last stage of a Detmolder rye, Hamelman's 90% rye and will be proofing in about an hour.  Great results before when splitting the loaves (I forget, 1.5# and change), but I've got a lot of dough this time, and was thinking of just trying one, large loaf - very close to 2kgs.  I don't have much experience at all with rye breads, learning curve very new to me, so wasn't sure if there's a kind of size limit given the structural nature of rye.  Is this really encouraging a pancake? 

Previously, I've slashed the loaves and they've been wonderful in taste and mouthfeel, but with varying spring in the oven (the variability I'm learning about, as to why - I'm really going to take it easy in the mixer, today) and varying structure.  Thankfully, my wife is Estonian-blooded, so she and my son love dense, dark ryes...but trying to find some air inside a bread even this high in rye.  I've seen some lovely, relatively lighter slices on this wonderful forum. 

Given that, some desired leger quality, wasn't sure about a loaf this size. 

Please note, I'll be docking this loaf (or these loaves), with a chopstick, not slashing this time.

Many thanks, guys. 

Paul

isand66's picture
isand66

If your using a pan to bake the loaf in you should be fine.

Let us know how it comes out.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Isand, thank you.  Afraid I shaped it in a boule and it went in as one, to my banneton. I'll post results here, hopefully helps others.  Can I ask, what sort of pan do you mean?  A standard loaf pan, something to contain the weight/sides?

Another conversation, the shaping of wet rye dough...feels more like true shaping, like play-dough, than developing a taut "skin" as in wheat levains...as I said, very new to rye [but love it, the complexity of earthy, sweet smells and nasal ping, at the acid and CO2!], so I'm baking more often than I'm properly reading!

More later; thank you again.

Paul

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

If it is a wet dough it will want to spread when it comes out of the basket.  No worries, a miche is a classic shape for this kind of bread - and no slashing required.  Good luck! Bake it low and slow or better per his directions.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

dabrownman, thank you.  It's interesting because for a long time, over the last several years, I just made the same bread over and over again, a levain from my liquid starter, KA bread flour (or TJ's AP flour, which I understood from reading somewhere, was reported to have a higher protein level than one would expect - and this was before I started coming at this again, learning more specifically about comparative "national" flours and their makeup - for me, it was always pastry, and a very nominal relationship to baking, though as a kid, that's how I started my cooking life), and typically rye or whole wheat at about 9%.  I really can't even say what the dough hydration was, because I maintained no strict known quantity in the liquid levain.  Total dough flour was 24.75 oz., water ranged anywhere from 10-16%, depending on my mood. 

I say interesting, because of the difference in spring between these wheat breads, and this rye process....you're spot on, in terms of expectations; it's been a learning curve for me just to come to understand rye and how it looks.  I'm a former (sort of early retired) French chef, and have very little experience with tasting (or certainly making) the plethora of N. European rye breads.  What experience I do have, comes from my wife's family, her Estonian line.  Whole other world. 

I wax on.  Just to say, a cool, new world I'm enjoying learning about, appreciate this site and learning from folks like you.  I'm about halfway through the bake, and will post as soon as it's cooling.  Thanks for the expertise, once again.

Paul

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Voila:

Hamelman 90% Rye

dabrownman, I realize only after I posted above - I see these large breaks in the loaf, my docking notwithstanding.  Because I found a docker at a reasonable price, at 7/8", I actually marked my chopstick to the same depth and tried it out (never "docked" before).  You mention "no need to slash" - you mean, no docking either, just bake and allow the natural crevices (as I've seen in many ryes - though I'm not certain mine are not evidence of technical flaw)?  In a word, would you consider this a normal height for the rye percentage, or does it look flawed, back to the drawing board?  

FYI, it actually came in at 1766 grams, not the 2kgs I mentioned earlier; I steamed and left moisture in for 10 minutes then the lava rock pan out, and temp went from 460 to 410, to an hour; oven open and temp off, with loaf drying for about 5 minutes then on to the rack.

 

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

you want to dock with a chopstick and no slash.  looks like you got a nice rise and spring too.  No technical flaws from my viewpoint.  I'm worries the bread didn't get done in the middle- a bread like this should bake for quite a while with stream and without. My 1,000g loaf in a pan bake for an hour and 20 minutes at a lower temperature.  You need to get a cheap instant read thermometer ASAP.  You don't  ever want a great bread like this one fail because it was not baked to 205 F on the inside middle.   Cross your fingers.

Mini might know what to do if the bread is still wet on the inside when you cut it.  She is a masterful rye baker and a 'Peach of a Pie' too. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

when it comes to rye, after a few days, cut and freeze half the loaf if you find it too much.    It looks excellent from here with some oven spring and wonderful crust colour.  I hope if baked long enough.  Did you take a reading of the inside temp?

My own loaves range from 1800g to 2100g depending on my mood and how much gets added.

Can't wait for the crumb shot!

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Mini, thanks for the vote of encouragement.  I've got just the humble 4.5 qt KA, so I think I'm hitting close to what I can squeeze out of it...that, and my lowly apartment oven, with a 16" depth.  Else I'd try for some of those long flat loaves, as seen in Marcel Pagnol's My Father's Glory (have you seen these films - do you know the bread I'm talking about?)!

No, I didn't take the internal temp - haven't gotten that precise yet, to my discredit.  As a chef, my way of knowing if meats were done was - I know, disgusting - taking the blade of a filet knife, inserting to the center of the meat, and laying it lightly on my bottom lip - the gradient of temp to the tip was an additional picture (I pan-roasted a lot of thick portions, e.g., a cote de boeuf at 32 ounces).  Something like a bottle of baby's milk, on my wrist, I guess. :0  So you prod me to do it, from now on.  I do plan to cure this loaf till tomorrow morning, which will put it at 36 hours (was it yours, somewhere, a mention of 40 hours?), and will report back here, with a photo of the crumb.

Thank you!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Do you poke the meat too? to feel it's inside squishiness?  

The loaves can also teach you that but use a probe thermometer to double check and then squeeze all your baked loaves while very hot and fresh.   You can feel the insides if you're sensitive enough.  Too squishy is not done yet (great for a rare steak though.)  Ran across this when I would flip out the loafs from the pan to brown more.  They feel "more set" when the inside reaches enough temperature.  

Naw, 24 hours is long enough.  Just keep the cut edge down on the cutting board to prevent drying out and wrap back up to soften the hard crust.   I would wait half a day longer if you want to freeze the bread. That way when it is thawed out, all the moisture is not in the middle of the loaf, moisture that will also crack the center while freezing.  

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

OK, well, tonight's dinner is 24 hours...so you've just made a very happy couple of N. Euro. blooded folks very happy. :)

On the meat, yep, definitely went by feel.  Sometimes I found it hard because I tended to give a very strong sear to the meat, and so when some of the individual roasts were really thick, I could get fooled occasionally by the hard crust, lending a false doneness to the inside (or, I may just have tendencies to obsessiveness, so the lip-thing was done everytime regardless. My sauces were typically all intrinsic sauces, I maintained something over 10 stocks, and where we were, it was unheard of to skim as religiously as I taught my cooks to do, every few minutes....).

Thank you for the wonderful experience points on the feel of loaves, and freezing, as well!  Would you say one might run into a "false doneness" on something like a rye, or rustic wheat (I'm thinking of a thicker, tougher crust) than some other breads, with a more giving crust?  Sorry, difficult for me to clearly convey on a post - but is it just experience that's taught you this "feel" of doneness in a comparative sense, between these different kinds of breads?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and sharing. Lots of sharing.  Also pays to make a guess and then goose the bread with the probe thermometer to make sure the guess is correct.  With time and a variety of breads, training to "feel" comes quickly. 

I am not trained as a baker and pay homage to those who go thru professional training and learn the trade.  Truly required and worthwhile if you plan to bake for a living.  I consider myself simply an observant home baker with some creative energy.  

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Guys, long story short is that I was at the hospital last night, pretty rough today so won't be around for a stretch.  But wanted to get back in touch to thank you for your kindness and generosity of thoughts.  Always gratified to find such expertise and high-level experience, tucked away in the countless kitchens of the web, given away with open hearts.  Thank you both.

isand66's picture
isand66

So sorry to hear you are having health problems.  Please get better soon and we will all be here to root you on.

Regards

Ian

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Hi everyone -

Isand, thank you for the kind thoughts - I wanted to apologize for such a long delay, bit of a rough ride and I've been away for a while.  I'm back baking, and in the "full sour" stage of another big beast of a dark rye.  Sorry I can't show you pics of the former one - eaten - nor this one, as it's dedicated for up in the U.P., for my wife's baltic clan... :)

Anyway, dabrownman, isand66, and mini oven - thank you, guys.  You've been so much help.  You've opened up a whole other nutritious (there's just something about rye...!), wonderful world of baking.

ps:  I will say, I'm really happy with a miche I made....I made it approximating a high-extraction flour with 80% whole wheat and 20 King Arthur AP, and it was wonderful.  Low rise, as expected, but this time I got what I was principally after, a much more open crumb.  I try to watch my doughs during bulk ferment and will go with that, to decide folding.  This one got 4 every half hour, more than P. Hamelman's book recommended, but it felt like it would serve the dough, and imo, it did. 

Anyway, best baking everyone, and thank you so much, once again.

Paul

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

For what it's worth, this is tonight's bread, which I intend for my in-laws. 

 

I've never kept a loaf uncut as long as 5 days or so (i.e., Christmas eve, when the extended family will be on hand), so not sure whether to cut it Saturday night and reserve the rest as best as we can, or can you rye-folks tell me, will it be good (all other things being equal) 5 days from now, uncut until then?

I hope you all are enjoying a great holiday season.  Ice, with snowstorm coming in, apparently.  Going nowhere tomorrow!